On 09/26/2016 10:54 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:

"the UKRAINIANS HAVE ASKED FOR HELP."

Diem 'asked for help' too! Remember? Now remember how he was installed. By the US. So were the Ukraine coup-plotters. Couldn't have done it without the US State Dept Victoria Nuland, and Soros organizations as point man/Bag man. After that was all said and done THEN the Pentagon and State Department cold send SEALS to train the 'Azov Batallion', and other Neonazi formations that ARE part of the Ukraine military. The methods for overthrowing governments and suppressing the captive populations haven't changed since the beginning of the industrial revolution or farther back. They've just been more exposed, so the lies get thicker. The elected government of Ukraine NEVER asked for US assistance. Stop lying. Rr

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Zenaan Harkness mailto:zen@freedbms.net> wrote:

So the US government appears set on complete destruction of Ukraine. Doesn't even make strategic sense at this point. I guess unless you're an essentially evil Western oligarch who wants to carve it up for purchase on the cheap, the people, the Russians, and the world be damned.

USA congress, your insanity and evil is noted. Once again, your broad scale fundamental compromise and therefore essential illegitimacy, is noted by the rest of the world.

Let's see if this is stopped or passed by the USA senate and president.

So what you're saying is that, if you get mugged on the street and the mugger has a gun to your head, then any attempt to resist the mugger means you are suicidal, and anyone who tries to help you is dead set on your destruction? Great logic, there.

One could just as easily turn this around and say that Putin is dead set on Ukraine's destruction because he won't allow the Ukrainians to determine their own destiny. Even if you were to assume that all his lies about not sending in Russian troops and equipment (almost certainly engineered to be precisely accurate under a very narrow definition of same and only if you squint in the right way) were true, he is certainly encouraging the Russian thugs living there to engage in as much violence as possible.

No, this is Putin's baby. He's set it up so that if he can't have Ukraine, nobody will. And the poor Ukrainians are caught in the middle, just as they always have been because of their unfortunate geographic situation next to a violent, ultranationalist neighbor. Violent and ultranationalist according to Zenaan himself, by the way, who just told us that Putin is the most moderate person the Russians could have elected.

The US is helping Ukraine because the UKRAINIANS HAVE ASKED FOR HELP. If the situation is truly as you claim it is, then why isn't it just "better to die on our feet than live on our knees?" Perhaps the Ukrainians are simply tired of living in Russia's shadow and are terrified of the strongman the Russians have elected?

As you know, I'm no fan of US foreign policy, but Russia is no better. As far as I can tell, you only like them because you hate the US so much, and the Russians are the only reasonable counterbalance you can think of. I totally agree with you on the need to return to a multi-polar world, just not because I think the Russians are any better than the US. They're just DIFFERENT and can force the US to compromise.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:35:21 -0700 Sean Lynch wrote:

The US is not innocent here, but attempting to play Russia off as "the good guy" or even "better" in any respect other than their vastly lower capabilities is just laughable.

Family picture attached.

On 09/26/2016 12:35 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Razer mailto:rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:

On 09/26/2016 10:54 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:

> > "the UKRAINIANS HAVE ASKED FOR HELP." >

Diem 'asked for help' too!

Remember?

Now remember how he was installed. By the US.

You claim he was "installed," yet clearly not acting in the US's interest.

I got to right... there. And I stopped. He just wasn't the right guy for the job so they killed him and installed someone else.Ky, who last I new lived in SoCal, got death threats all the time and didn't understand why... As his ex-ARVN thugs were doing military-style home invasion robberies in the SF Bay area whose victims wouldn't talk to the police, who couldn't protect them and they knew it... Of COURSE he was acting in a manner more suitable to the US. The option was... Horrors! Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, and the *Terror* of SE Asian Com Com Communism! Rr Why might that be? Perhaps because he wasn't actually

"installed" as people generally think of it, or perhaps because Putin bought him back from the US?

So were the Ukraine coup-plotters. Couldn't have done it without the US State Dept Victoria Nuland, and Soros organizations as point man/Bag man. After that was all said and done THEN the Pentagon and State Department cold send SEALS to train the 'Azov Batallion', and other Neonazi formations that ARE part of the Ukraine military.

You say coup, I say revolution. And the Russians call everyone they don't like Neonazis. I'm sure some of them are, but Russia is not exactly in a position to throw stones. Neither side is populated with angels.

The methods for overthrowing governments and suppressing the captive populations haven't changed since the beginning of the industrial revolution or farther back. They've just been more exposed, so the lies get thicker.

The elected government of Ukraine NEVER asked for US assistance.

I love your careful phrasing there. I said "Ukrainians" and you responded with "elected government of Ukraine." Of course the "elected government of Ukraine" didn't officially ask for assistance. I'm not sure what "elected" even means in Ukraine, what with 123% of registered voters turning up in Sevestapol to vote to secede. But as we all know Russia NEVER interferes with elections.

The US is not innocent here, but attempting to play Russia off as "the good guy" or even "better" in any respect other than their vastly lower capabilities is just laughable. The only thing they have going for them is that they're not the US and can form a counterbalance. Which is not exactly a high bar.

Stop lying.

Not particularly helpful language when you're trying to tease apart a very complex situation. But perhaps that's not what you're actually trying to do.

Rr

> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Zenaan Harkness mailto:zen@freedbms.net > mailto:zen@freedbms.net>> wrote: > > So the US government appears set on complete destruction of Ukraine. > Doesn't even make strategic sense at this point. I guess unless you're > an essentially evil Western oligarch who wants to carve it up for > purchase on the cheap, the people, the Russians, and the world be > damned. > > > USA congress, your insanity and evil is noted. Once again, your broad > scale fundamental compromise and therefore essential illegitimacy, is > noted by the rest of the world. > > Let's see if this is stopped or passed by the USA senate and president. > > > So what you're saying is that, if you get mugged on the street and the > mugger has a gun to your head, then any attempt to resist the mugger > means you are suicidal, and anyone who tries to help you is dead set on > your destruction? Great logic, there. > > One could just as easily turn this around and say that Putin is dead set > on Ukraine's destruction because he won't allow the Ukrainians to > determine their own destiny. Even if you were to assume that all his > lies about not sending in Russian troops and equipment (almost certainly > engineered to be precisely accurate under a very narrow definition of > same and only if you squint in the right way) were true, he is certainly > encouraging the Russian thugs living there to engage in as much violence > as possible. > > No, this is Putin's baby. He's set it up so that if he can't have > Ukraine, nobody will. And the poor Ukrainians are caught in the middle, > just as they always have been because of their unfortunate geographic > situation next to a violent, ultranationalist neighbor. Violent and > ultranationalist according to Zenaan himself, by the way, who just told > us that Putin is the most moderate person the Russians could have elected. > > The US is helping Ukraine because the UKRAINIANS HAVE ASKED FOR HELP. If > the situation is truly as you claim it is, then why isn't it just > "better to die on our feet than live on our knees?" Perhaps the > Ukrainians are simply tired of living in Russia's shadow and are > terrified of the strongman the Russians have elected? > > As you know, I'm no fan of US foreign policy, but Russia is no better. > As far as I can tell, you only like them because you hate the US so > much, and the Russians are the only reasonable counterbalance you can > think of. I totally agree with you on the need to return to a > multi-polar world, just not because I think the Russians are any better > than the US. They're just DIFFERENT and can force the US to compromise.

On 09/26/2016 07:00 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:

On 09/26/2016 08:33 PM, Razer wrote:

...

...

Diem 'asked for help' too!

Remember?

Now remember how he was installed. By the US.

You claim he was "installed," yet clearly not acting in the US's interest.

...

I got to right... there. And I stopped. He just wasn't the right guy for the job so they killed him and installed someone else.Ky, who last I new lived in SoCal, got death threats all the time and didn't understand why... As his ex-ARVN thugs were doing military-style home invasion robberies in the SF Bay area whose victims wouldn't talk to the police, who couldn't protect them and they knew it...

...

Of COURSE he was acting in a manner more suitable to the US. The option was... Horrors! Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, and the *Terror* of SE Asian Com Com Communism!

Uncle Ho approached the U.S. for assistance in ousting the French, who were literally starving the Vietnamese. He was essentially told to go fuck himself.

He was attempting to play on old loyalties from his concerted efforts to drive the Japanese out of the peninsula during WWII. He quickly found out Western White people don't 'do' loyalty. I doubt he seriously thought the US would help with the French and A Nazi infested French Foreign Legion. Just like Gladio. A Nazi-infested NATO secret army. Rr So he went and found other playmates. The rest, as

they say, is history - because we are supposed to kind of sort of know about the rest.

I forget the details of how the "temporary" partition of Vietnam became "permanent", but that's included in Overthrow: America's Century Of Regime Change, by Stephen Kinzer. Pretty good book, very factual up until about the Regan Administration where he starts reporting propaganda lies as straight fact; it goes downhill from there. There's this little thing about how, for instance, the Bush clan tends to kill authors who blacken the family name. At minimum, factual reporting on the actions of presently living war criminals would put a serious kink in one's professional prospects.

:o/

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:07 PM, juan wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 10:54:18 -0700 Sean Lynch wrote:

...

No, this is Putin's baby. He's set it up so that if he can't have Ukraine, nobody will. And the poor Ukrainians are caught in the middle, just as they always have been because of their unfortunate geographic situation next to a violent, ultranationalist neighbor.

I didn't know ukraine shared a border with the United States of Amerikkka?

That would be Mexico, which is in a similar boat, and if Mexico tried to turn toward the Russians and the US was supplying pro-American forces there while someone was trying to support the US I would be supporting the Russians in that scenario.

...

The US is helping Ukraine because the UKRAINIANS HAVE ASKED FOR HELP.

Come on. Don't you have a fresher propaganda can?

You know what? If the US and its NATO puppets weren't trying to surround the russians, ukraine wouldn't be a battleground today.

'course, putin and the russian state can't be defended, but you americans are even worse.

I don't disagree with you. I came off as more "ra ra 'merica" than I really intended to.

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:

On 09/23/2016 08:04 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

So the US government appears set on complete destruction of Ukraine. Doesn't even make strategic sense at this point. I guess unless you're an essentially evil Western oligarch who wants to carve it up for purchase on the cheap, the people, the Russians, and the world be damned.

In the context of the Cold War, now arriving at the boiling point due to the Bush/Obama Administration's belligerent posture toward Russia, the U.S. annexation of Ukraine via a (literally) Nazi proxy force makes strategic sense: It was a destabilizing military and economic provocation against the Russian Federation, and has been followed by a massive conventional force buildup on Europe's eastern borders, adding pressure to the weight of U.S. controlled strategic nuclear assets that were /already/ present on that border. These deployments must be countered, which ties up Russian military assets and reduces that country's force projection capabilities in North Africa and the Middle East.

Russia's continuing support of the ethnic Russian enclave on Ukraine's eastern border also makes strategic sense: It prevents full consolidation of power by the U.S. installed government, prevents routine deployment of East-facing U.S. controlled forces on the Ukraine/Russian border, and provides a potential haven for Ukrainian insurgents working against the government in Kiev.

Crimea's value to Russia is self explanatory, and I do not recall hearing anything about the populace turning out to protest the orderly handover of power to Russia in preference to a U.S. sponsored gang of (literal) Nazis. Rather the opposite, and I saw no evidence that the U.S. even /tried/ to retain Crimea.

I don't disagree with this, but I will say that I think there are other equally valid interpretations that don't involve words like "annex", which I think applies far more to Russia with Crimea than it does to the US w.r.t. the rest of Ukraine. On the other hand, the main innovation of the US flavor of imperialism is the more subtle/opaque means by which it achieves its ends, thus ensuring that one can easily interpret it as not imperialism. Not that the Russians are above subterfuge; they're just not in a position to as easily use it in this situation.

The "USA Number One!" mentality of comfortable Middle Class Amerikans makes sense of a kind: Their continued material prosperity relative to the former Working Class /does/ depend on global terrorism, enforced poverty, mass murder, cities reduced to rubble and refugee columns, etc. as the U.S. war of global economic conquest continues. They deserve to see the same things happen to their own children and families, and if they continue to get their own way they WILL see that - - unless they happen to be closer to ground zero "on the day." Unfortunately, this cheerful little scenario involves dragging those /not/ responsible for all that human misery and heaped, dead burnt bodies down into the same hell.

This is by no means unique or even more prevalent in the United States than elsewhere. The way for any government to retain its power is by convincing a large enough segment of the population that it's better off than it would be under some other situation they think they can achieve. Cognitive assonance does the rest. I certainly suffer from it as much as anyone. I like to think I'm more enlightened than the average person in my position, but TBH I have no idea what I'll do when the shit hits the fan. What I do know is that my family comes before any kind of ideology. Which in a sense is just selfishness, but I do feel like I was far more able to do things on behalf of ideology that were not in my immediate self-interest before I had kids.

The real conflict here is not West vs. East or even USA vs. The Rest Of The World. It is the human race, vs. its own parasitic ruling class and their faithful servants. The parasites have already lost; if they do not surrender their power voluntarily (impossible), environmental limits enforced by the laws of physics will destroy that power (inevitable). Now the only game in town is about reducing the final body count, which no rational scenario places at less than a couple of billion, and preserving essential long term survival resources for the survivors. And that's where radical populist politics enters the scene. Communication is vitally important in political warfare, and providing the best possible tools to Our Side is the mission that makes "cypherpunk" bullshit worth doing.

I don't share your pessimism as to bodycount, but that could be wishful thinking.

+1. Can I +2 if I develop multi-personality syndrome?

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On 09/23/2016 08:04 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

So the US government appears set on complete destruction of Ukraine. Doesn't even make strategic sense at this point. I guess unless you're an essentially evil Western oligarch who wants to carve it up for purchase on the cheap, the people, the Russians, and the world be damned.

In the context of the Cold War, now arriving at the boiling point due to the Bush/Obama Administration's belligerent posture toward Russia, the U.S. annexation of Ukraine via a (literally) Nazi proxy force makes strategic sense: It was a destabilizing military and economic provocation against the Russian Federation, and has been followed by a massive conventional force buildup on Europe's eastern borders, adding pressure to the weight of U.S. controlled strategic nuclear assets that were /already/ present on that border. These deployments must be countered, which ties up Russian military assets and reduces that country's force projection capabilities in North Africa and the Middle East.

Russia's continuing support of the ethnic Russian enclave on Ukraine's eastern border also makes strategic sense: It prevents full consolidation of power by the U.S. installed government, prevents routine deployment of East-facing U.S. controlled forces on the Ukraine/Russian border, and provides a potential haven for Ukrainian insurgents working against the government in Kiev.

Crimea's value to Russia is self explanatory, and I do not recall hearing anything about the populace turning out to protest the orderly handover of power to Russia in preference to a U.S. sponsored gang of (literal) Nazis. Rather the opposite, and I saw no evidence that the U.S. even /tried/ to retain Crimea.

The "USA Number One!" mentality of comfortable Middle Class Amerikans makes sense of a kind: Their continued material prosperity relative to the former Working Class /does/ depend on global terrorism, enforced poverty, mass murder, cities reduced to rubble and refugee columns, etc. as the U.S. war of global economic conquest continues. They deserve to see the same things happen to their own children and families, and if they continue to get their own way they WILL see that - - unless they happen to be closer to ground zero "on the day." Unfortunately, this cheerful little scenario involves dragging those /not/ responsible for all that human misery and heaped, dead burnt bodies down into the same hell.

The real conflict here is not West vs. East or even USA vs. The Rest Of The World. It is the human race, vs. its own parasitic ruling class and their faithful servants. The parasites have already lost; if they do not surrender their power voluntarily (impossible), environmental limits enforced by the laws of physics will destroy that power (inevitable). Now the only game in town is about reducing the final body count, which no rational scenario places at less than a couple of billion, and preserving essential long term survival resources for the survivors. And that's where radical populist politics enters the scene. Communication is vitally important in political warfare, and providing the best possible tools to Our Side is the mission that makes "cypherpunk" bullshit worth doing.

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/26/2016 08:23 PM, Razer wrote:

On 09/26/2016 02:04 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:

...

The "USA Number One!" mentality of comfortable Middle Class Amerikans makes sense of a kind: Their continued material prosperity relative to the former Working Class /does/ depend on global terrorism, enforced poverty, mass murder, cities reduced to rubble and refugee columns, etc. as the U.S. war of global economic conquest continues. They deserve to see the same things happen to their own children and families, and if they continue to get their own way they WILL see that - unless they happen to be closer to ground zero "on the day." Unfortunately, this cheerful little scenario involves dragging those /not/ responsible for all that human misery and heaped, dead burnt bodies down into the same hell.

I'm going to use that quote. Want attribution or should I 'blame it' on some anonymous Ward Churchill doppelganger?

Do What Thou Wilt - I have no preference. In the world of propaganda, duplication and distribution is the sincerest form of flattery. Here's a variation on the same theme. I think the upcoming Presidential election must be what's pissing me off; every time one of "Those People" sitting left of center in the extremist fringe Right Wing crosses my radar lately I go off: Our Liberals and Progressives are, for the most part, well informed and educated people. Education is a synonym for Indoctrination - everybody from used car salesmen to Fortune 500 Public Relations corporations says their real job is to educate the public. Every one of our "educated" Liberals and Progressives is very well aware that their own family's hopes and dreams of a comfortable lifestyle now and in the future depend on keeping everything running along just as it is: Complete with the systematic looting of whole communities and economies, installation of militarized police and slave labor prisons to control the growing mass of poor people, and mass murder of other people's families where and as necessary to achieve economic objectives in the National Interest. They have deliberately embraced a convenient, delusional world view where all they can do about Things They Know Are Wrong is blame some hated Other, complain politely, express their heartfelt sympathy for the victims and pronounce with grave wisdom: "Some problems won't be solved in our lifetimes." They are the problem, and if we don't solve them, Nature will - and take us down with them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJX6sS0AAoJEECU6c5Xzmuq3W0IAMWVer7UAjRO/siEZNBjcjmY uvn/Ow3j+SsmyH6F8aNcic2RLFBE/O+VNw1DWydggsfkMVkwZ+uaKPl4lClSkMMi Z7pNbnWJIB6LZLZ4U+rUqRcNoRMc0KlwBI2GZ479pNrVJ2I3NXh2RfVAr0klc+9g bLT003phNtjH4iMkSUSZQPaPN8QocTCDMCPaqggFY6+MhQGCqLy8c1NzgXed1Lds IpMK3KjhCpv9YnqU4qhsSi7WxghXOoZ6pMICHDTM3R0okUqCZbYJ3YDQctoa00kD CIhgXRjtkinJGeLNASZeTZuoXTDtL4OE6coOE7JQ13lB7H7bUJLujJe+cs4sFDM= =Bi3C -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

2016-09-27 0:04 GMT+03:00 Steve Kinney :

In the context of the Cold War, now arriving at the boiling point due to the Bush/Obama Administration's belligerent posture toward Russia, the U.S. annexation of Ukraine via a (literally) Nazi proxy force makes strategic sense: It was a destabilizing military and economic provocation against the Russian Federation, and has been followed by a massive conventional force buildup on Europe's eastern borders, adding pressure to the weight of U.S. controlled strategic nuclear assets that were /already/ present on that border. These deployments must be countered, which ties up Russian military assets and reduces that country's force projection capabilities in North Africa and the Middle East.

Russia's continuing support of the ethnic Russian enclave on Ukraine's eastern border also makes strategic sense: It prevents full consolidation of power by the U.S. installed government, prevents routine deployment of East-facing U.S. controlled forces on the Ukraine/Russian border, and provides a potential haven for Ukrainian insurgents working against the government in Kiev.

Crimea's value to Russia is self explanatory, and I do not recall hearing anything about the populace turning out to protest the orderly handover of power to Russia in preference to a U.S. sponsored gang of (literal) Nazis. Rather the opposite, and I saw no evidence that the U.S. even /tried/ to retain Crimea.

The "USA Number One!" mentality of comfortable Middle Class Amerikans makes sense of a kind: Their continued material prosperity relative to the former Working Class /does/ depend on global terrorism, enforced poverty, mass murder, cities reduced to rubble and refugee columns, etc. as the U.S. war of global economic conquest continues. They deserve to see the same things happen to their own children and families, and if they continue to get their own way they WILL see that - - unless they happen to be closer to ground zero "on the day." Unfortunately, this cheerful little scenario involves dragging those /not/ responsible for all that human misery and heaped, dead burnt bodies down into the same hell.

The real conflict here is not West vs. East or even USA vs. The Rest Of The World. It is the human race, vs. its own parasitic ruling class and their faithful servants. The parasites have already lost; if they do not surrender their power voluntarily (impossible), environmental limits enforced by the laws of physics will destroy that power (inevitable). Now the only game in town is about reducing the final body count, which no rational scenario places at less than a couple of billion, and preserving essential long term survival resources for the survivors. And that's where radical populist politics enters the scene. Communication is vitally important in political warfare, and providing the best possible tools to Our Side is the mission that makes "cypherpunk" bullshit worth doing.

Steve, *thank you very much for this email!!!* THANK YOU! I will send it to all my Russian brothers who speak English to show them.... a great example of a Human Being from the bloody-fucken "West". * (except the emails from Zenaan that i usually send them)