November 2006 - tsc - lists.ogf.org

Re: [tsc] comments from a relative newbie
by David Snelling 30 Nov '06

30 Nov '06

Chris, In a chat with Mark today, we rationalized that it is unlikely that many changes are possible in the TSC Document before the end of the week. However, the opening section (1.3 in particular) seems to be important to the BoD and others. I like your thoughts here on refining the definition/attributes of different notions of Grid. Can I ask you to have a go at editing this section before the end of the week? The current version of the document is at: https:// forge.gridforum.org/sf/go/doc13748?nav=1 There trackers that capture the BoD's comments are here: https:// forge.gridforum.org/sf/tracker/do/listArtifacts/projects.tsc/ tracker.task_for_our_technical_strategy Thanks and let me know if this is simply not possible by EOD Friday. On 21 Nov 2006, at 20:29, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > Dave, > > Even though I've been working with GGF and EGA for a couple of > years, my efforts have been very focused until recently - INFOD in > GGF and Utility Accounting in EGA (until the last few months of > EGA's lifetime, of course). I have actively ignored OGSA until a > few months back. > > More recently, I've been trying to get my head around OGSA and > Architecture and what's needed in the merged organization - both > for the sake of OGF as well as for my employer. Oracle expresses a > lot of interest in (and has a fair bit of marketing success with) > "grid", but the development efforts inside Oracle really don't have > a lot of overlap with what's happening at OGF. My role is, not > surprisingly, to try to make that overlap a bit larger, by acting > on both sides. > > So, I've been on all the OGSA calls lately, have tried to digest > the OGSA documents and minutes, and am mostly sitting on the > sidelines listening rather than trying to influence. I've been a > bit more vocal on the TSC calls, of course. :-) > > I'm not sanguine about things as they are, but didn't really have a > good articulation of my concerns, until Paul & I had a chat > yesterday. That helped crystallize some of my thinking, and is the > genesis of this note. I thought it prudent to start the > conversation with you - and perhaps it really should be a > conversation rather than an email chain - rather than blast this > into the room on some conference call... > > It seems that the "let a thousand flowers bloom" philosophy of the > past has produced a lot of interesting work, not all well- > connected. In our brave new world of OGF, which is being called > upon to produce results quickly, I think we need to come up with > succinct answers to these two questions (at least): > > - what is grid? > - how do we get there? > > I don't think we have crisp answers for either one. I'd guess that > the pat answer of the moment is that the landscape document will > answer the first and the strategy document will answer the second, > but I really don't see that either of those answers is accurate. > > For example: I've been trying to push this as an answer to "what is > grid?": > > - infrastructure virtualization > - resource pooling & sharing > - self monitoring & improvement > - dynamic resource provisioning > - highest quality of service > > I know you've seen this before. It's not original to me - it's part > of the marketing message that Oracle is using around grid, to good > effect. > > From a technical standpoint, I view it as the interfaces, if you > will, that form the building blocks of grids, and the three types > of grid that we talk about in the TSC doc are profiles that use > them. But we don't have any such broad statement in any of our > documents, marketing or technical, and I think that's going to cost > us. > > I have to admit that I nodded off while reading the outline of the > landscape paper. I don't take that as a good sign. But it's also > not my bailiwick, so I'm not going to worry about it. > > So, let's assume that, at least among friends, we can answer the > first question, even if we haven't done it crisply and for public > consumption. So how do we get there? > > Well, as a start, I went to look at the latest draft of the OGSA > Roadmap - that seems like a good place to start. But the roadmap > is really about the process for creating standards > and not one for solving problems related to Grid. There is a lot > of content around timetables for documents but not around what > problem each of those helps you solve and how that fits into the > big picture. > > I'm not really sure where to go for that. The TSC document should > be higher level than that; this last set of questions is tactics > more than strategy. > > The OGSA architecture document leaves me cold, I have to say, as > does the OGSA Use Case document, which is an interesting set of > ideas but refers to some documents that are very out of date (I'm > thinking of its references to the OGSA Data Management Service - > though I guess that's being worked on in OGSA-Data-WG). I know that > these documents have a long history, and it's hard to keep them up > to date and in sync. > > If we were running this as an internal development project - "we" > is any of us, not Oracle - there would be a clear roadmap and a > timeline and Gantt charts (well, maybe not). That's admittedly > harder to do in a "let a thousand flowers bloom"/"herding cats" > world, but I believe that the lack of such a roadmap hurts us. > > Not only because it makes it difficult for outsiders to see where > we're headed, but also because it makes it difficult to see what > yet needs to be done. I think I tried to make this point early in > the TSC process, but didn't get very far with it - because someone > pointed out, rightly, that we weren't in a position to tell people > what they should be working on, since we aren't paying them. > > Fair enough. But I assert that there needs to be some level of > benevolent dictatorship, or, if you prefer, guidance from above. > Steering the ship, or at least using the sails to take advantage of > the available winds. I don't see enough of that, but maybe I don't > know how to read the waves. (Maybe I'm stretching this analogy too far > > Here's a case in point: provisioning and configuration management. > This is of great interest to me and Oracle. I was both dismayed and > encouraged to hear Andrew Grimshaw's comments at the OGSA F2F to > the effect that they had looked at CDL and decided that it was too > heavyweight to use (my interpretation of his words) - dismayed > because it points to a lot of wasted effort, encouraged because I > had reached a similar conclusion. I am merely dismayed that CDDLM- > WG appears to be disbanding. Now OGF has no workable provisioning > solution at all. > > I feel like I'm rambling now, but I think that's the nature of the > beast at the moment. But let me pose a question I don't know the > answer to, and don't know how to find out, as a test case: > > How does SN-CG fit into all this? Alan Yoder is hot to build > something, but (famously) complained that the OGSA Data > Architecture isn't something that can be built. So we've gone off > and started SN-CG, which is planning to build something that is > basically a GME for storage; managing storage containers (more than > managing the data in the containers). I asked today how that fits > into OGSA-Data, and we couldn't really get a clean answer - > something that we should figure out sooner rather than later. > > The next version of that question would be about provisioning and > configuration management. If someone wanted to throw some > provisioning and configuration management tools over the wall, what > interfaces should they implement? > > I could propose a set of answers here, but I'd rather get a > reaction first. > > Best, > chris > [Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)

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Call Dial-in info
by Joel Replogle 29 Nov '06

29 Nov '06

TSC - As a reminder, we will be using the following dial-in for the call today: 11:00am CST US & Canada: 1-866-875-2241 Intl: +1-832-445-1174 Passcode: 4935596 Thanks, Joel ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------- Joel Replogle - Manager of Standards, Open Grid Forum replogle(a)ogf.org http://www.ogf.org

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Re: [tsc] A little help needed
by David Snelling 23 Nov '06

23 Nov '06

[Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] Folks on the TSC, Mark needs a little help, and on a short fuse. I have tried to outline some simple ideas to these questions, but I think David B. needs more detail than I can provide at present. On 21 Nov 2006, at 18:38, Linesch, Mark wrote: > David, Joel, > > Need a little help from the Standards/Technical team here… > In the process of writing the Grid and Distributed Computing > Landscape document, David Birnbaum has come up with a series of > questions that need to be answered for the reader. Can you look > these over and do the following: (a) Answer these questions from > your perspective; (b) identify an OGF expert who might be able to > answer one or more of these questions and send them the question > and solicit them to provide a response. The responses can be in the > form of a short paragraph per question but try to be as specific > and factual as possible in your answer. David will utilize your > responses and others as in-depth source material as he continues to > write the document. > > QUESTIONS: > 1. What are the issues or limitations of a virtualized server > infrastructure that can be addressed by grid capabilities? Virtualizing a server infrastructure only addresses one layer in the system. The Grid provides, using many of the same concepts as SOA, virtualization of higher layers of the stack, e.g. application etc. > 2. What are the issues or limitations that might be encountered > during either a pilot or production implementation of SOA that can > be addressed by grid capabilities? The key issues here are scale and dynamics. Most SOA deployments are relative small scale of highly specialized. Adding Grid to SOA provides a more dynamic platform, allowing new service to come and go continuously. > 3. Applications > a. Which non-compute intensive applications are well suited to > running on a grid? This one is out of my scope. > b. What modifications are needed to run an application on a grid? > Does the application have to support parallel processing? If the aim of using Grid is to exploit many servers on a single task, then yes parallelism is necessary. This does not necessarily mean the application needs adaptation. Many applications are already parallel in nature or the parallelism can be supported by parts of the Grid middle ware. For example, most transaction based applications would not require changing, provided that the underlying database provided support for distributed transactions. > c. Are I/O intensive applications not suitable for grid? Provided that the infrastructure and application are designed for it, data intensive applications work very well on a Grid. care is needed in ensuring that data transfer bottle necks are managed and that the data itself is distributed across the Grid infrastructure. The applications should be configured to tolerate latency, e.g. using work queues. > 4. For an enterprise IT architect, what grid standards, services > and technologies does OGF recommend that they have on their > planning horizon over the next three years? The list in the Technical Strategy Document is a good start. I would add to that standards for data centre management, which may come from OGF or elsewhere. > Please email your perspective/response to these questions directly > to David and copy me by EOD, Wed, November 29th. Your help is much > appreciated. I know this is less text than you need, but at least it's on time. I hope the rest of the TSC can help. -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)

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New Trackers with BoD Comments
by David Snelling 20 Nov '06

20 Nov '06

Folks, During my (short) presentation to the BoD on the Technical Strategy Document, I asked them for comments. These have been forthcoming and I have created trackers so we can all work in parallel. The deadline for the BoD is the middle of next week, but the storm seems to have died down already, so I think we can start addressing them. I recommend the following process: 1) The trackers are located at: https://forge.gridforum.org/sf/tracker/do/listArtifacts/projects.tsc/ tracker.task_for_our_technical_strategy?_message=1164038141119 2) Could everybody please read through trackers that start "Some comments from ..." Then think about them. 3) If you have a suggestion about what we should do in the document to address the issues raised, add your suggestion to the tracker. 4) If you want to address those issues in the document yourself, assign the tracker to yourself. 5) When we reach a rough consensus on each issue, we can start passing around the pen. NB: We have a deadline for a near final draft of December 1st, so please don't let this drop to the bottom of your Xmass list. [Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)

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Regrets today
by Maguire_Tom＠emc.com 15 Nov '06

15 Nov '06

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2 1

Re: [tsc] I'm sure you saw this...
by David Snelling 15 Nov '06

15 Nov '06

Chris, This snibit article doesn't say much, so I wouldn't respond to it directly. However, Fellows is more worth answering. Pointing him at the SC2006 interop of the HPC Profile might be the best thing to do. On 14 Nov 2006, at 21:15, Chris Kantarjiev wrote: > ... shouldn't we (OGF) be preparing a response? > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/gridmeter/archives/2006/11/ > what_makes_a_st.html [Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)

1 0

Before I forget
by David Snelling 14 Nov '06

14 Nov '06

[Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] Folks, You will remember that last time we clashed over the use of my number with a working group. We will again use a number from Joel. Joel correct me if these numbers are wrong: US & Canada: 1-866-875-2241 Intl: +1-832-445-1174 Passcode: 4935596 -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)

2 2

Re: [tsc] Version 7 Posted
by Malcolm Atkinson 12 Nov '06

12 Nov '06

OK, I'll try to find time to read Sunday or Monday, but not optimistic Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: David Snelling [mailto:David.Snelling@uk.fujitsu.com] Sent: 11 November 2006 11:06 To: TSC Cc: Malcolm Atkinson; Andrew Grimshaw Subject: Version 7 Posted Folks, Version 7 of the TS Document is posted on Grid Forge. https://forge.gridforum.org/sf/docman/do/downloadDocument/ projects.tsc/docman.root.drafts/doc13748/7 This is the one we will present to the BoD next Wednesday. Note: I have a collection of comments on version 6 from Malcolm and Andrew that have not yet been addressed. These are now in trackers and we will assign an editor on the next call. [Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile) [Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)

1 0

Version 7 Posted
by David Snelling 11 Nov '06

11 Nov '06

Folks, Version 7 of the TS Document is posted on Grid Forge. https://forge.gridforum.org/sf/docman/do/downloadDocument/ projects.tsc/docman.root.drafts/doc13748/7 This is the one we will present to the BoD next Wednesday. Note: I have a collection of comments on version 6 from Malcolm and Andrew that have not yet been addressed. These are now in trackers and we will assign an editor on the next call. [Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile) [Bicycle crash boiler plate: I will include this boiler plate in my mails for a few weeks to apologize for terseness in the rest of the mail. I have a broken finger from the crash on Oct 4th, and typing is hard and possible only in short spurts. Sorry, Dave.] -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)

1 0

[Fwd: [gfsg] BusinessWeek Front Page Article on Amazon S3 and EC2]
by Chris Kantarjiev 11 Nov '06

11 Nov '06

So ... how does our Technical Roadmap encompass S3/EC2? Should it?

5 4