Marvin: Isn't this ignoring the very real possibility that multiple renderings exist because clients are not willing to support one rendering or the other? So, they may not care in practice what rendering a BES service is using, because the resource selection process would have already chosen a service instance that is compatible with the client's abilities. There isn't an "extra" round-trip if you assume that discovery included type discovery. And I personally have a hard time imagining that you would want to do discovery and selection without having resolved the actual message compatibility question, since it is one of the most basic "viability" questions for whether this client's job can go there... It sounds to me that people still want to define two different classes of rendering. One that does not take advantage of any newer web service frameworks, and one that does. Saying we've merged these renderings by making one that doesn't use the frameworks is not addressing this conflict in goals, but pre-supposing that people do not actually care to build systems using the frameworks. karl -- Karl Czajkowski karlcz@univa.com