owner-ogsa-wg@ggf.org wrote on 06/22/2005 04:13:17 PM:
Three alternate answers:
[1] MS has been giving *public* talks (I attended one two weeks ago) in which they publicly stated that they believed that "everything" would be in standards bodies within a year. I asked the speaker specifically with regard to WS-SecureConversation, WS-Trust, and WS-Management and the speaker said yes. I believe I followed up privately regarding WS-Transfer, WS-Enumeration, and WS-Eventing, and he said yes. He said that certain things are out of their control, of course, but that every intention is to have them these specs in standards bodies by the end of the year. Yes, I understand that this is an easy statement to attack, but I tend to believe him (MS realizes that every day these are NOT in a standards body is an opportunity lost, right?) Yes, I understand that the world is not so simple, but I tend to believe them.
If you wish to believe this that is your perogative. I on the other hand will wait and not hold my breath. As to opportunity lost; what is the incentive to standardize if developers are happy to work with specs that are not standardized?
[2] Given that Don Ferguson and Francisco Curbera of IBM are co-authors of WS-Eventing, and given that you're employed by IBM, I would turn this around and ask you to see if you can ask internally to find out some publicly-disclosable answers, which you could then share with the rest of the community.
As I mentioned in earlier thread typically co-authors are contractually obliged to one another with regard to joint work (read specs). Those agreements usually spell out ALL of the details of the joint work up to and including how agreement would be reached among the co-authors to bring to an SDO. Typically those joint agreements would preclude unilateral action on any one parties part with respect to the joint works. Additionally, some of those agreements preclude disclosure of the agreement details. With that in mind, IBM as a co-author of WS-Eventing intends to bring the WS-Eventing specification forward with the co-authors at some point. However, there is no definitive date and as a forward looking statement this statement of intent is subject to changes in business imperatives.
[3] I've heard IPR issues as being the bugaboo regarding specifications as opposed to documents ratified by standards bodies. So I'll assume that you're referring to the IPR issues in the latter half of your email. If not, and you believe that these specs will never actually make it to a standards body, then you can ignore the following response (and perhaps focus on my response #1, above)....
Regarding IPR, admittedly, IPR has never been something that I've had the time or interest to deeply understand (I'm an academic, remember?) So your statement (which I believe to refer to IPR) made me curious. In digging to try to find the IPR issues/statements for WSRF and WS-Eventing (for example), I'm even more confused.
On one hand, here's the statement on the WS-Eventing spec:
"BEA, Computer Associates, IBM, Microsoft, Sun, and TIBCO (collectively,
"Authors") each agree to grant you a license, under royalty-free and otherwise reasonable, non-discriminatory terms and conditions, to their respective essential patent claims that they deem necessary to implement
Specification."
This seems pretty clear (and desirable for our community, right?) So what's the issue? That it might change before being submitted to a standards
Please help me understand.
I'm trying to figure out the comparable statement with regard to, say, WS-Resource Property, it doesn't seem to be as clear. The spec itself doesn't seem to say anything directly one way or the other, except to say in Appendix E ("OASIS takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any intellectual property or any other rights that might be claimed to
to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document....") On page 2, the spec *does* say "For information on whether any patents have been disclosed that may be essential to implementing
specification, and any offers of patent licensing terms, please refer to
Intellectual Property Rights section of WSRF TC Web page". This web page says that this TC operates under something called the "Legacy IPR Policy", which seems to be a very generic statement (nothing specific to WSRF -- just "no confidentiality requirements on contributions", "contributors must disclose known patents"). But nothing that I can find about royalty-free. Perhaps I'm missing it.
So, can you tell me why the WS-Eventing is so bad compared to WSRF? As we all know, it's not like "because it's in OASIS, it's royalty-free", right?
Thanks for clearing this up for me, Marty
Marty Humphrey Assistant Professor Department of Computer Science University of Virginia
-----Original Message----- From: Tom Maguire [mailto:tmaguire@us.ibm.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:44 PM To: Marty Humphrey Cc: 'Ogsa-Wg'; owner-ogsa-wg@ggf.org Subject: RE: [ogsa-wg] OGSA-MWS-BOF at GGF14 on Tues June 28, noon-1:30
So to be precise, with regard to status, you have no idea when or if
specifications will be submitted to an SDO for standardization. Further you have no way of knowing when or if those specifications will be submitted to an SDO, given that there are most likely contractual obligations between the current set of authors to which you would never be privy and if you were would be precluded from disclosing.
Tom
Frey’s Law: “Every 5 years the number of architecture components double and the ability to comprehend them halves”
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. – Antoine de Saint-Exupery
T o m M a g u i r e
STSM, On Demand Architecture
Poughkeepsie, NY 12601
owner-ogsa-wg@ggf.org wrote on 06/22/2005 07:45:03 AM:
1. Please could you clarify the status of WS-Transfer, WS-Eventing
WS-Enumeration in the terms of the OGSA Profile template? I.e. have
been submitted to an SDO, are they draft or evolving, etc.?
As you know, there is a 4-step process by which these specs will become standards: [1] "Develop", in which the spec is published; [2] "Broader Participation", in which there are feedback and interop workshops (resulting in possibly revising and republishing the specs); [3] "Standardization", in which the specs are submitted to a standardization body, which then can modify the spec as well and eventually ratify; [4] "Profiles", in which a separate document shows how to *combine* specs, generally resulting in a "subsetting" of the original specs.
On Dec 1, 2004, Intel hosted a "feedback" workshop (step [2]), above, for WS-Enumeration and WS-Transfer. The companies attending the workshop included AMD, Computer Associates, Dell, HP, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, SAP, Sharp, Sonic, Sun, veritas, et. al. Although I can't entirely confirm
it looks like the following companies brought implementations of WS-Enumeration/WS-Transfer to this workshop: Microsoft, Dell, Intel, NetIQ, Sun, and WebMethods.
On Feb 19, 2004, Tibco hosted a "feedback" workshop for WS-Eventing. Attendees included Microsoft, BEA, IBM, NEC, Sonic, etc. On April 15, 2004, Microsoft hosted an "interop" workshop on WS-Eventing ("The outcome of
and they this, the
workshop was the demonstration of interoperability among all the 7 implementations." The seven implementations were from BEA, Canon, Epson, Microsoft, Ricoh, Sonic, and Systinet.) It looks like there will be another WS-Eventing workshop, although the date/time have not been announced.
The most recent specs are:
-- WS-Eventing: Aug 2004 (Authors: IBM, BEA, Computer Associates, Microsoft, Sun, and Tibco). This new version modifies the original version (Jan 2004, I believe) to reflect the workshops.
-- WS-Enumeration: Sept 2004 (Authors: Systinet, Microsoft, Sonic, BEA, Computer Associates). This is the first version of the spec.
-- WS-Transfer: Sept 2004 (Authors: Systinet, Microsoft, Sonic, BEA, Computer Associates). This is the first version of the spec.
There's an interesting graphic that shows some of the progress from Microsoft's perspective here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/webservices/graphics/workshop-timeline.gif (this is taken from
http://msdn.microsoft.com/webservices/community/workshops/default.aspx)
2. I can see that WS-Transfer specifies some of the functionality
of WSRF
and WS-Eventing is largely equivalent to WS-BaseNotification, but what has WS-Enumeration to do with this? From a brief reading, it seems to specify functionality that is independent of either stack.
I can see this point -- in our initial designs and experimentation with WS-Transfer and WS-Eventing, we chose to not utilize WS-Enumeration. But we are increasingly considering WS-Enumeration as an important part of
story.
From Felipe Cabrera of Microsoft: "Many scenarios require data exchange using more than just a single request/response message pair. Types of applications that require these longer data exchanges include database queries, data streaming, the traversal of information such as namespaces, and enumerating lists. Enumeration, in particular, is achieved
establishing a session between the data source and the requestor. This session is established using the Enumerate operation, which provides an enumeration context that is then used in subsequent operations. Successive messages within the session transport the collection of elements being retrieved. No assumptions are made on the approach used by the service to organize the items that will be produced. What is expected is that under normal processing circumstances, the enumeration will produce all the underlying data before the end of the session.... In its simplest
I was not focused on IPR although that is an issue. Although not a first level issue. the the body? pertain this the those the through form,
WS-Enumeration defines a single operation, Pull, which allows a data source, in the context of a specific enumeration, to produce a sequence of XML elements in the body of a SOAP message.... Three more request/response operations are defined in WS-Enumeration: Renew, GetStatus, and Release.... State information regarding the progress of the iteration can be maintained between requests by either the data source or the consuming service.... In addition to enumerating the data entities present in a Web service, it is convenient to be able to perform several basic operations on them. These operations are introduced in the WS-Transfer operation."
I hope this helps, Marty
Marty Humphrey Assistant Professor Department of Computer Science University of Virginia