April 2005 - ogsa-wg - lists.ogf.org

Re: [ogsa-wg] RE: Modeling State: Technical Questions
by Hiro Kishimoto 05 Apr '05

05 Apr '05

Roger's email bounced. ---- Hiro Kishimoto Subject: Re: [ogsa-wg] RE: Modeling State: Technical Questions From: Roger Menday <r.menday(a)fz-juelich.de> To: Karl Czajkowski <karlcz(a)univa.com> Cc: ogsa-wg(a)gridforum.org, Mark McKeown <zzalsmm3(a)nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:48:07 +0200 On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 17:09 +0700, Karl Czajkowski wrote: > On Apr 05, Mark McKeown loaded a tape reading: > ... > > I am not sure why people think there should only be a one-to-one > > mapping of a job to a resource. > > I do not think anyone is saying there should ONLY be a one-to-one > mapping, but rather that there is a one-to-one mapping of job to > resource for the mythical 80% solution. In fact, it is this mapping > that gives us an inutitive sense of there being a job at all! I have > come to think that part of the appeal of the WSRF approach for many is > to be able to more clearly codify which operations are applicable to a > specific resource for these 80% cases. It does not preclude the other > 20% solutions, but gives us more firm ground upon which to think about > interoperability for the straightforward scenarios. > > As for the rest of your message (sorry, no pun intended), I think you > underestimate the difficulty: you need a consensus on how to normalize > the concept space around all the different job metadata that might be > useful to reference jobs in different usage scenarios. This > normalization is inherent in having the hierarchical URI space in > which you've framed your simple examples. My experience leads me to > have a flight response when I hear "consensus", "normalization", and > "concept modeling" in the same paragraph... > > As an example, I find it exceedingly strange that the job's transient > state is part of its structured name below, but its unique numeric > identifier is used as a reference parameter. To me, it should clearly > be the other way around. So, each job has it's own URI, eg, http://thegrid/users/ian/jobs/435 Then, doing a GET on this returns some document of job metadata (??) Roger > I don't think you can really avoid the > adoption of a query language for the 20% cases, whether it is some > ad-hoc URI+reference parameter strategy like this, or > XPath/XQuery/etc. against a structured group abstraction. I think a > fruitful standards activity must start with a flat per-job reference > model and then add (optional) grouping abstractions to handle these > more exotic cases. > > > karl > > > >... Applying REST: > > > > GET http://thegrid/user/Ian/jobs > > > > returns a representation of all of Ian's jobs > > (or maybe just Xlinks to resources that represent those jobs). > > > > To suspend all the active jobs send a suspend message to the > > resource that represents all the Active jobs: > > > > POST http://thegrid/user/Ian/jobs/Active 'Suspend' > > > > > > Suspending specific jobs of Ian's, send a suspend message to the > > resource that represents the specific jobs: > > > > POST http://thegrid/user/Ian/jobs/Active?job=27&job=35 'Suspend' > > > > or > > > > DELETE http://thegrid/user/Ian/jobs/Active?job=27&job=35 > > > > > > Suspend all jobs that have used over 1 hours of CPU time owned by > > Ian: > > > > POST http://thegrid/user/Ian/jobs/Active?MinCPUTimeUsed=3600 > > 'Suspend' > > > > > > > > Using conventional SOAP operation this looks like: > > > > suspend('All-jobs-owned-by-Ian + CPUtime > 36000' ) > > > > Doing it this way requires coming up with a suitable query language. > > Access control could be more difficult, in the REST case only Ian > > should be able to access resources starting with > > http://thegrid/user/Ian/. > > > > In theory the above could be done with WS-Resources using WSRF > > - I suspect it would be more difficult/complex though. > > > > > > Perhaps I am very wrong though... > > > > cheers > > Mark > > > > >

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Re: [ogsa-wg] RE: Modeling State: Technical Questions
by Karl Czajkowski 05 Apr '05

05 Apr '05

On Apr 05, Roger Menday loaded a tape reading: > On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 17:09 +0700, Karl Czajkowski wrote: ... > > As an example, I find it exceedingly strange that the job's transient > > state is part of its structured name below, but its unique numeric > > identifier is used as a reference parameter. To me, it should clearly > > be the other way around. > > So, each job has it's own URI, eg, http://thegrid/users/ian/jobs/435 > > Then, doing a GET on this returns some document of job metadata > > (??) > > Roger > I suppose, or really http://server.somewhere.grid/jobsXYZ/TlkUjg13DunN8ie2 I think the URI is really just an opaque dispatch path that makes sense to the endpoint designer and not necessarily anyone else. As soon as you start trying to organize or decompose this space according to conceptual interface rather than implementation, you run headlong into the community modeling tar-pit. My starting assumption is that there will be different communities or sects with different domain models. The danger with using URIs and reference parameters for this is that it is very poorly typed, so there is very little tooling support to express how the concept space has been modeled nor to perform meaningful validation at runtime. There is also very little support for building discovery systems to catalog and organize information about different resources using such an implied model. Using something like XPath or XQuery to select resources from a virtual XML "group" document seems a lot more disciplined to me, as does having XML representation of the "valid" operations and metadata for those resources (WSDL and WS-ResourceProperties, in the WSRF approach). As to whether GET on resource URIs actually does anything useful, I'll leave that for people who care about such things. :-) Similarly, whether DNS is sufficient for practical, efficient, resilient naming of URI namespace "authorities" is also something I'll leave to others. Personally, I hope that the resource URI is more than a transient service address. It seems to me that some of the WS-Addressing debate relates to whether this is the case in practice or not. karl -- Karl Czajkowski karlcz(a)univa.com

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Proposed agenda for April 6th call
by Hiro Kishimoto 05 Apr '05

05 Apr '05

Hi all, The following is a proposed agenda for OGSA-WG telecon on April 6th Wednesday from 5pm to 7pm (CDT). The meeting is for "OGSA Profile definition" discussion. Please read the latest draft carefully in advance and bring your comments/questions to the call. Dial-in numbers for Wednesday: Free: +1-888-452-0308 Intl/Toll: +1-484-644-0505 PIN: 71815 Screen share service will be provided. URL: http://ogsa.glance.net Session key: 0406 See more explanation: http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2004/06/msg00077.html 1) Early discussion (10 min) Note taker assignment Roll call Telecon minutes approval Agenda bashing 2) "OGSA Profile definition" discussion (60 min) We will submit an informational document "OGSA Profile definition" synchronized with "OGSA basic profile." In order to finalize it, we will have review sessions on this. - The latest revision https://forge.gridforum.org/projects/ogsa-wg/document/draft-ggf-ogsa-profil… plate/en/3 3) Wrap up (10 min) AOB April 11 (5-7pm CDT) New WG status report April 13 (noon-2pm CDT) Basic Profile April 13 (5-7pm CDT) Roadmap discussion See telecon schedule until May F2F: https://forge.gridforum.org/projects/ogsa-wg/document/telecon_schedule ---- Hiro Kishimoto

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Data: Short telcon to discuss charter
by Dave Berry 04 Apr '05

04 Apr '05

Dear all, I will be 15 minutes late for this week's data telcon, so it will start at 7.45am PDT / 10.45am EDT / 3.45pm BST / 4.45 pm CEST. The main topic for discussion will be the conversion to a working group. Note that this is also a topic for discussion on the main OGSA WG today and we also discussed it last week, so I hope that Wednesday's discussion should be straightforward. We will also have an update on work for the architecture document. Dave Berry Research Manager, National e-Science Centre 15 South College St., Edinburgh Tel: +44 131 6514039

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Proposed agenda for April 4th call
by Hiro Kishimoto 04 Apr '05

04 Apr '05

Hi all, The following is a proposed agenda for OGSA-WG telecon on April 4th Monday from 5pm to 7pm (CDT). The dial-in number for Monday; Free: +1-866-639-4741 Toll: +1-574-935-6703 PIN: 8980700 Screen share service will be provided. URL: http://ogsa.glance.net Session key: 0404 See more explanation: http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2004/06/msg00077.html 1) Early discussion (10 min) Note taker assignment Roll call Telecon minutes (March 28) approval - http://tinyurl.com/44hff. Agenda bashing 2) May F2F meeting update (20 min) Hold a Basic Execution Services (BES) meeting on Sunday May 22, OGSA (including Naming) on Mon/Tue, and Data on Wed. Proposed location: Imperial College. Andrew to check Karl Czajkowski's availability, and will also send mail to Mathias Dalheimer. 3) OGSA-* WGs charter discussion (20 min) We should confirm that OGSA-WG and the emarging new WGs will go forward consistently. - OGSA BES-WG http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2005/03/msg00145.html - OGSA ByteIO-WG http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2005/04/msg00000.html - OGSA-D-WG http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2005/03/msg00142.html - OGSA-naming WG https://forge.gridforum.org/projects/ogsa-wg/document/draft-charter-naming-… /1 4) GFSG issues (20 min) - Design team WG promotion 5) "OGSA Profile definition" discussion (60 min) We will submit an informational document "OGSA Profile definition" synchronized with "OGSA basic profile." In order to finalize it, we will have review sessions on this. - The latest revision https://forge.gridforum.org/projects/ogsa-wg/document/draft-ggf-ogsa-profil… plate/en/3 6) Wrap up (10 min) AOB April 6 (noon-2pm CDT) Basic Profile April 6 (5-7pm CDT) TBD April 11 (5-7pm CDT) New WG status report April 13 (noon-2pm CDT) Basic Profile April 13 (5-7pm CDT) Roadmap discussion See telecon schedule until May F2F: https://forge.gridforum.org/projects/ogsa-wg/document/telecon_schedule ---- Hiro Kishimoto

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RE: [ogsa-wg] OGSA-BES DRAFT charter and F2F
by Dave Berry 01 Apr '05

01 Apr '05

Should this charter should be more specific about the interactions with the OGSA WG? E.g. Hiro's suggestion for the draft ByteIO charter says: "As the ByteIO interface is intended to be part of OGSA, the WG will have joint review discussion with OGSA-WG before every milestones, e.g. first draft recommendation document review before GGF14." It may also be sensible to list some of the things that are out of scope for this group. Dave. _____ From: owner-ogsa-wg(a)ggf.org [mailto:owner-ogsa-wg@ggf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Grimshaw Sent: 31 March 2005 15:28 To: ogsa-wg(a)ggf.org; OGSA-BES-bof(a)ggf.org Cc: Bill Nitzberg; Stephen Pickles; 'Karl Czajkowski' Subject: [ogsa-wg] OGSA-BES DRAFT charter and F2F All, Attached is the draft BES charter. Please comment in the next several days so we can get this off to the GFSG. A few other administrative things. 1) We are planning a face-to-face in conjunction with the OGSA F2F in London at the end of May. The OGSA F2F is May 23-24. We will have the BES F2F the day before - on Sunday the 22. 2) The proposed weekly teleconference time is 10 AM Eastern (US) on Thursdays (NOT including today.) It is not an ideal time for the folks in Asia. Midnight in Japan, and 10 PM in Thailand. We are working on finding a conference call number and will post in advance. Any ideas are appreciated. Andrew

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Telcon for OGSA ByteIO WG charter
by Dave Berry 01 Apr '05

01 Apr '05

Dear all, The ByteIO group plans on having it's first telecon next Tuesday at 11AM Eastern (8AM Pacific, 4PM UK and midnight in Japan). Our agenda for that telecon includes the group's first discussion of the charter. Please see the attachments. UK Dial In: 0845 245 0224 US Dial In: 1866 838 0046 International Dial In: +44 1452 542309 PIN Number: 632 065 Best wishes, Dave Berry Research Manager, National e-Science Centre 15 South College St., Edinburgh Tel: +44 131 6514039

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