*Although, signup for this meeting was a bit lackluster, We have the opportunity to meet on Wed. Sept 30. 06:00 PDT, 9:00 EDT, 14:00 BST, 15:00 CEST *cheers, gary* * Thijs Metsch wrote:

Sounds interesting...but Sept 25 doesn't work for me...

Gary can you Maybe create a doodle for this event?

Thanks,

-Thijs

On Wed, 2009-09-23 at 09:01 -0600, Gary Mazz wrote:

...

I' like to schedule a meeting to discuss Sam Johnston's proposal to move OCCI attributes elusively to HTTP headers.

I'd like to schedule this conference on friday Sept 25, 2009, the as time as the weekly call.

We need to fully understand the mapping of the attributes to the http protocol structures and the impacts to the specification.

cheers,

gary mazz

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Sam, Good luck with your move today.. I hope its somewhere nice. :-) I'm hesitant cover this topic in tomorrow's document review. OGF 27 is less than 2 weeks a way, we need to get this document reviewed edit an ready for release. I do not want to spend the time discussing a shift in direction that will result in making the release of this document unachievable for OGF27. This group cannot miss another release date for this specification. I suggest we table the discussion until after OGF27, and move forward with what we have. If there is significant enough reason and agreement by the group to change the current direction, we can split the document into a reference model and transport models, ala DMTF, SNIA, OMG, T10/SCSI, and ATA and have enough time to properly analyze the options. cheers, gary Sam Johnston wrote:

Gary,

I'm moving to another country today so it's not particularly convenient for me (which is why I hadn't responded to your poll yet). I'd suggest adjourning such a discussion until I can explain the pros and cons of the three main options which will either be on the call tomorrow (assuming I'm not carting boxes around at the time) or some time after Thursday. I'd explain by email now but it's 02h30 and I've got a big day ahead of me... just quickly the options (bearing in mind the payload/entity-body is effectively opaque) are:

- use a wrapper format for the metadata like SOAP or Atom (which neuters many nice HTTP features like caching while adding a significant encoding overhead, but it does give us collections) - use a separate resource for the metadata e.g. have http://example.com/myvm.ovf as well as http://example.com/myvm.atom, http://example.com/myvm.json, http://example.com/myvm.txt etc. (which is what we had planned until recently, but which requires us to specify renderings in various formats) - use the HTTP headers (which avoids the whole format discussion by using a single, standard format which can be sent with [GET] or without [HEAD] the payload/entity-body)

I've spent the last week running around Europe talking about Open Cloud and OCCI too (CloudCamps in Edinburgh, London & Frankfurt among other things) so there's not many changes - at least from me - this week.

Sam

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Gary Mazz <garymazzaferro@gmail.com <mailto:garymazzaferro@gmail.com>> wrote:

*Although, signup for this meeting was a bit lackluster, We have the opportunity to meet on Wed. Sept 30. 06:00 PDT, 9:00 EDT, 14:00 BST, 15:00 CEST

*cheers, gary* *

Thijs Metsch wrote: > Sounds interesting...but Sept 25 doesn't work for me... > > Gary can you Maybe create a doodle for this event? > > Thanks, > > -Thijs > > On Wed, 2009-09-23 at 09:01 -0600, Gary Mazz wrote: > >> I' like to schedule a meeting to discuss Sam Johnston's proposal to move >> OCCI attributes elusively to HTTP headers. >> >> I'd like to schedule this conference on friday Sept 25, 2009, the as >> time as the weekly call. >> >> We need to fully understand the mapping of the attributes to the http >> protocol structures and the impacts to the specification. >> >> cheers, >> >> gary mazz >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> occi-wg mailing list >> occi-wg@ogf.org <mailto:occi-wg@ogf.org> >> http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/occi-wg >>

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Hi Sam, This issue is not whether I like an idea or not. We are involved in a community driven effort, and community consensus should prevail. I feel assured you would not make a call for a dramatic shift in technical direction if there wasn't significant merit to warrant consideration. I would like to hear more about the idea, dicuss its merits and understand how it will impact the group's charter to adopt RESTful principals. Today, we are faced with a deadline where significant changes to the specification will result in missing our commitment. My concern is the timing of this activity and the impact it will have on completing the occi draft, in its current form, by OGF27. I would have felt much better if the document was divided into a reference model and implementation part(s). At least with that scheme, we would have a reference model has a deliverable in part. However, no action was taken to address this issue which would avail the flexibility to quickly shift direction as new informations and ideas are presented. -gary Sam Johnston wrote:

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:53 AM, Gary Mazz <garymazzaferro@gmail.com <mailto:garymazzaferro@gmail.com>> wrote:

Good luck with your move today.. I hope its somewhere nice. :-)

That's yet to be seen - I'm unconvinced but I'll still be spending a fair bit of time in Paris and it's got to be better than "le trou du cul de la France" where we are now.

I do not want to spend the time discussing a shift in direction that will result in making the release of this document unachievable for OGF27.

It's clear that you either don't understand or don't like the concept (or both) but did you realise that the HTTP headers allow us to avoid writing the various renderings? These are both significant work requiring serious attention to detail (basically stuff I think we should leave to the IETF which is why I've been churning out Internet-Drafts for these areas) and significant risk to interoperability... ironically those who [dis]like each of the formats will end up having to implement all of them. The text rendering <http://occi.googlecode.com/hg/docs/occi-text.html> basically puts HTTP headers in the entity-body anyway so it's not a huge leap of faith to put it in the headers (where metadata arguably belongs).

Furthermore, the metadata may conflict with the resource itself (for example a container having more/less cores/memory than the workload specifies) which breaks our model. By jumping into the entity-body we're essentially contracting to provide a representation and even if lossy/incomplete it must be correct. Consider the problem of starting a read-only VM template but being confined to Amazon-style instance types, or instances that resize/burst dynamically based on load. This completely breaks our model and requires us to revisit the idea of separating container from workload (as I originally suggested) - that *is* something I'd rather avoid doing at this late stage.

Ultimately HTTP doesn't touch the entity-body so neither should we - that makes for a very clear demarcation point as to what is OCCI and what is left to other standards like OVF. While this may not seem so important right now, it is when you start looking at cloud platform constructs like queues and structured storage (databases).

I'll do what I can to be on both 3pm and 4pm calls (meme si elle va casse mes couilles :P).

Sam

Sam Johnston wrote:

...

Gary,

I'm moving to another country today so it's not particularly convenient for me (which is why I hadn't responded to your poll yet). I'd suggest adjourning such a discussion until I can explain the pros and cons of the three main options which will either be on the call tomorrow (assuming I'm not carting boxes around at the time) or some time after Thursday. I'd explain by email now but it's 02h30 and I've got a big day ahead of me... just quickly the options (bearing in mind the payload/entity-body is effectively opaque) are:

- use a wrapper format for the metadata like SOAP or Atom (which neuters many nice HTTP features like caching while adding a significant encoding overhead, but it does give us collections) - use a separate resource for the metadata e.g. have http://example.com/myvm.ovf as well as http://example.com/myvm.atom, http://example.com/myvm.json, http://example.com/myvm.txt etc. (which is what we had planned until recently, but which requires us to specify renderings in various formats) - use the HTTP headers (which avoids the whole format discussion by using a single, standard format which can be sent with [GET] or without [HEAD] the payload/entity-body)

I've spent the last week running around Europe talking about Open Cloud and OCCI too (CloudCamps in Edinburgh, London & Frankfurt among other things) so there's not many changes - at least from me - this week.

Sam

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Gary Mazz <garymazzaferro@gmail.com <mailto:garymazzaferro@gmail.com>> wrote:

*Although, signup for this meeting was a bit lackluster, We have the opportunity to meet on Wed. Sept 30. 06:00 PDT, 9:00 EDT, 14:00 BST, 15:00 CEST

*cheers, gary* *

Thijs Metsch wrote: > Sounds interesting...but Sept 25 doesn't work for me... > > Gary can you Maybe create a doodle for this event? > > Thanks, > > -Thijs > > On Wed, 2009-09-23 at 09:01 -0600, Gary Mazz wrote: > >> I' like to schedule a meeting to discuss Sam Johnston's proposal to move >> OCCI attributes elusively to HTTP headers. >> >> I'd like to schedule this conference on friday Sept 25, 2009, the as >> time as the weekly call. >> >> We need to fully understand the mapping of the attributes to the http >> protocol structures and the impacts to the specification. >> >> cheers, >> >> gary mazz >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> occi-wg mailing list >> occi-wg@ogf.org <mailto:occi-wg@ogf.org> >> http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/occi-wg >>

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