Dan, As background ... Retrieving the model/schema is one of the basic operations of CIM - just like getting a property value. Also, changing units between minor releases of the schema is not allowed. Andrea ________________________________ From: owner-nm-wg@ggf.org [mailto:owner-nm-wg@ggf.org] On Behalf Of Dan Gunter Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:01 AM To: nm-wg@ggf.org Subject: Re: [nm-wg] Specifying units Andrea Westerinen (andreaw) wrote: In the DMTF, we address the units issue by defining it in the meta-data/schema and requiring that implementations return the dictated units (btw, percent is a type of "unit"). So, having the schema definition provides the unit information. This has required implementations to convert kbps to bps, etc. but saves the client from doing instance-level conversions. Thanks for the input, Andrea, it is good to know how other groups are handling this issue. My $0.02. To me, this is a somewhat XML-schema-centric view of the world. Other schema languages, e.g. Relax-NG schemas, do not modify the infoset (do not define default values for attributes). The disadvantage is potentially redundant information in each message. The advantage is that the converse of the above, that not having the schema means you don't have the unit information, is not a problem (also consider what happens when the units change between schema versions). Martin has also argued that whether the sender or receiver is the more natural (convenient and/or correct) place for unit conversion depends on the situation. To throw a spanner into the works, I would even argue that just because you have two measurements with the same units and value does not necessarily mean that you have, even approximately, the same result without considering issues of resolution, accuracy, and precision. Oh dear, I've said too much, I can hear the black helicopters circling overhead.. :-) -Dan Andrea -----Original Message----- From: owner-nm-wg@ggf.org [mailto:owner-nm-wg@ggf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Swany Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 3:54 PM To: nm-wg@ggf.org Subject: Re: [nm-wg] Specifying units Hi Loukik, It has come to our notice that the messages in v2 responses do not specify units while giving back measurement data (ex: Bandwidth Utilization and Capacity). Specifying such units is necessary and messages should be enhanced to support this. I think that what you've actually saying is that the PerfSONAR prototype doesn't return units. The NM-WG v2 schema dated 20050802 actually includes the units in almost every measurement and this has been in the schema for a long time. We've talked a lot about the way to do it. The current examples feature units in the datum element, but as you note, that wastes space. Some of the examples also depict it as part of the metadata (which is what I've been mostly in favor of as the least offensive current option.) There are definitely issues with that -- mainly that the way that the data is stored is really different than the way in which it is collected. So, it can go in parameters, but it might be nice if it were able to be presented in the data section, but not in every datum. We've discussed this one as well, and thus far there have been no good solutions (or none that we found generally workable.) we could specify it just once..maybe like this: <perfsonar:data dataUnits="bps"> This really requires the data element to be in a specific namespace or to become an omnibus for all the things that might be common in the enclosed datum elements. There could be other numeric values in the datum that require unit information and we'd have to add support for each of them to data. For example, from the current schema: <iperf:datum interval="2.0-3.0 sec" numBytes="231" numBytesUnits="MBytes" value="1.94" valueUnits="MBytes/sec"/> There are multiple numeric values that need unit qualification. <perfsonar:data> <perfsonar:units dataUnits="bps"/> This one is even more thorny. We referred to this as the "older sibling" model as it makes siblings dependent on order, and we decided to avoid that so we could use things like hashes. or something else... Something else is really where we are now. What we have discussed is a general way to "factor out" common attributes or elements from a set of datum elements. CommonTime is an example of this, but a general mechanism would be nice. I proposed something before where an enclosed element in a datum could enclose a set of datum elements indicating that this value was common. It was greeted with a mixture of animosity and indifference, often coexisting in the same person's reaction. Actually, I think that the newly-discussed "bag of parameters" might be a partial solution to this problem but it still doesn't help when the things common to a set of datums are complex and not simple attributes (like a time range.) The second comment is: Choice of units. After a chat with Jeff on this, I can list out two options Jeff suggested that: Service uses the units that the data is already in (for ex. in rrd tool, data is in octets per second. Hence service continues to provide data in octets per second) and continues to return data in the same units. However, the units in use should be clearly specified using any of the above suitable methods. Data in RRDTool is not necessarily in octets per second, BTW. Interface utilization data is generally fetched from an octet counter (just to be pedantic.) An option that I would like to propose is usage of units used in common practice. For example, bandwidth, as known to me, is more commonly expressed in bps (and their factors). A service should hence *reasonably* strive to use the units that are in common practice. Either way, specification of units using any of the suitable methods mentioned previously is absolutely necessary. I agree that reasonably trying to use units in common practice is a good goal. Many discussions over many years have led me to believe that in many cases, common practices aren't so common. For instance bandwidth is in bits per second when talking about link capacity or sending bogus test data, but in often in bytes per second when an application is using the data. I think that trying to mandate a "best practice" is a slippery slope. I vote for unambiguous specification and easy translation. Nevertheless, if a service returns capacity and utilization in the same message, it would be nice to have them both in the same units (unlike the current case with Perfsonar prototype where capacity is bps and utilization is octets per second) Question here is: Which option is ideal? Should we provide capacity and utilization in the same units in our prototype? We can let everyone else weigh in, but if the units are specified (as they can easily be) then why not just divide and convert? That seems easier to me than forcing one or the other into a less-than-natural format. martin