Cees: You may be interested in my presentation at Grid networks. "Grid Networks: On demand or virtual?" http://www.canarie.ca/canet4/library/recent_presentations.html As you know I have long argued against on demand or schedule bandwidth networks for grids such as DRAC, HOPI, JRA3, etc. On demand suffers from inherent complexity, the difficult issues of doing inter-domain, call blocking, etc etc I have always argued that for short duration flows a generic IP routed network with advanced TCP is for more efficient and practical. For long duration or persistent flows I think we are seeing an increased trend towards virtual networks - something we have long advocated with our UCLP (Agria) program I am now pleased to see that EU is moving in this direction with the recently announced 4WARD program http://www.emobility.eu.org/Events/2007-09-04_PIMRC_Conference_Athens/Genera l_4WARD_public.pdf Bill
-----Original Message----- From: ghpn-wg-bounces@ogf.org [mailto:ghpn-wg-bounces@ogf.org] On Behalf Of Cees de Laat Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 12:45 PM To: Freek Dijkstra; ghpn-wg@ogf.org Subject: Re: [GHPN-WG] Meeting notes OGF 21
Thanks Freek!
If no-one has objections I upload this also next to the slides on the meeting materials web site. Please mail me if something needs to be corrected.
best regards, Cees.
At 17:59 -0700 17-10-2007, Freek Dijkstra wrote:
In the spirit of "Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you", here are the meeting notes.
I tried to be a bit extensive, for the people at GridNets.
Meeting notes GHPN ================== OGF 21, wednesday, 2007 Oct 18
* Slides will shortly be uploaded to http://www.ogf.org/gf/event_schedule/index.php?id=959 * Attendents: - Jason Zurawski - Richard Hughes-Jones - Licia Florio - Wolfgang Ziegler - Cedeyn - Costes Kotsokalis - Debbie Montano - Ralph Niederberger - Inder Monga - Martin Swany - Freek Dijkstra - Cees de Laat
Document status --------------- - Use cases document by Tiziana Ferrari - Gone through public comment - One favourable comment in tracker - G-UNI draft - See presentation (below) - G-OBS document - At external expert reviewers. - Richard Highes-Jones will try to get this through the document process. - Short debate on the viability of Optical Burst Switching.
Charter ------- Cees de Laat thinks the charter needs to be updated. There is still a need to think about beyond hybrid networking, either bottom-up (migration from an e-mail-based "control plane" to automated lambda set-up) or high-level thinking. By now, middleware projects start to emerge where CPU, storage and networking are co-scheduled.
Richard Hughes-Jones: We need to make grid community aware that the network is not a static thing that "is just there", and that GHPN is one of few places where network people and grid people meet.
Action: This discussion is taken to the mailing list.
G-UNI presentation ------------------ Slides by George Zervas (Univ of Essex) et al., <gzerva@essex.ac.uk> Cees the Laat presents, since none of the authors is present at the OGF.
See slides.
- Slide 8 (proposal for a generic G-UNI architecture) - Debbie Montano asks: who is going to implement this? G-Lambda, Phosporous, Enlightened need this. They probably will. G-UNI is an abstraction layer. A common G-UNI allows easier interaction between different software/ projects. - Inder Monga likes to standardize the communication between Grid users and Middleware, rather than between middleware and network control plane, as this slides seems to indicate. - A short discussion on the scope follows. Richard Hughes-Jones reminds use that there are standard interface to request CPU. Someone notes that this is not (yet) true for the network. - Richard Hughes-Jones: this is a research group, not a working group. It defines architecture, not protocols or implementations. Cees de Laat notes that the mailing list is claled GHPN-WG, instead of GPHN-RG for historical reasons. - Martin Swany: We need to reach out, to other groups. - Slide 9: (Grid Network overlay Architecture I.) - The audiance and presenter are confused by the label "GUNI (transport)" on the lower left of the slide. It is suggested that the GUNI signalling is in-band, and transported over the lower actual network. Richard Hughes-Jones says that signalling can't be in-band, since signals are transmitted before a connection is set up. The presenter looks confused, and resolves the issue by skipping to the next slide.
Cees de Laat is not 100% of the status. He thinks it was already ready for internal review by the working group since the previous OGF, but suspects it has not gone to that status since everyone is busy.
Richard Hughes-Jones appreciates the overview that the work gives, but sees a risk that it is overly complex. Cees de Laat agrees: It states a lot together. Cees thinks that publication as informational document is good basis to move forward for grid middleware projects. It shows to grid people how to deal with network resources.
Martin Swany suggests to change the name of the document. It reads as if it specified *THE* G-UNI, while it specifies *A* UNI. Suggestions are: "Discussion of G-UNIs" or "A UNI study". Richard Hughes-Jones and Inder Monga agree.
Phoebus presentation by Martin Swany ------------------------------------ - There is a gap between backbone bandwidth and the actual perceived TCP throughput: the "bandwidth gap" - Single TCP streams are important (despite GridFTP, alternative transport protocols, etc.). - Phoebos segments the transport. It uses OSI session layer. - Buffering of data in the network. - 3 segments: access network+ core + access network. TCP termination close to user gives better performance. - Martin sees a simularity with "burst switching" - Connection negotiation, as required in this concept, removes need for a firewall, if authenticated. - Martin argues that the end-to-end arguments may no longer apply - bring back state in network - Cees de Laat cares about the feedback: he wants to know for sure that the data is arrived at the destination, and wonders who closes the connections: the first hop or the final destination. If the first hop, how to make sure all data arrived at the destination? - Martin stresses that "an adaptation layer atop the existing IP network is a viable path to innovation", and plugs this approach as a "Do-it-yourself-GENI"
Cees closes the sessions and hopes to see everyone at the next meeting. -- ghpn-wg mailing list ghpn-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ghpn-wg
-- http://www.science.uva.nl/~delaat/ -- ghpn-wg mailing list ghpn-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ghpn-wg