Fw: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth
All: On the DFDL WG call 17NOV2010 my concern was that this rule was added 'recently' but on closer review I see that it was just changed a bit ("discriminators" changed to "dfdl:discriminators"). Ruth, Alan and I are all in agreement that this rule is a throwback to an earlier discrimination schema and needs to be removed. The proposal is to remove the following from the spec: In section 7.4 : "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group I'm sending this email out with two purposes: 1. Does anyone disagree and believe that this rules is still relevant? 2. Is this change critical enough to amend the final spec or publish some form of errata to the specification? And if so, what is our next step? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect ----- Forwarded by Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM on 11/18/2010 07:54 AM ----- From: Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS, Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB Date: 11/17/2010 05:55 AM Subject: Re: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Stephanie I think you are correct. That statement is probably left over from when the discriminator confirmed the existence of a parent. Regards Alan Powell Development - MQSeries, Message Broker, ESB IBM Software Group, Application and Integration Middleware Software ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IBM MP211, Hursley Park Hursley, SO21 2JN United Kingdom Phone: +44-1962-815073 e-mail: alan_powell@uk.ibm.com From: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS To: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS Date: 16/11/2010 20:42 Subject: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Steve/Alan: Was just talking with Ruth about the discriminators and I think we've got something in the spec that we may need to remove in this area. Let me talk this out here first to see if perhaps I've remembered something incorrectly. In section 7.4 we have: "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group" This makes perfect sense in WTX. In WTX an identifier is placed on a component of a group. Then the identifier is proven to exist the parent exists. Allowing only one per the sequence is necessary in this scheme. In DFDL we place the discriminator on the component being discriminated. So we have a rule that points to ones children such as ..if present child2 then I exist. I can not see how the 'one per sequence' gets us anything in CT in most cases. We can't mean that only one of the parents in a sequence can contain a discriminator. In EDI each segment in a loop can have a discriminator. As we are using a rule at the parent it would be difficult (and not very useful) to restrict the rule to referencing only one child. So I'm confused - and I've confused Ruth. Can we take five minutes from the WG call to straighten me back out again please? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect
I always questioned that rule... you can have several asserts but only one discriminator ?!.... Gerardo Brenner Common Transformation Team IBM United Kingdom Limited, Mail Point 211, Hursley Park, Winchester, Hants, SO21 2JN Tel: +44-(0)-1962-816366 Fax: +44-(0)-1962-818338 e-mail: gerardo_brenner@uk.ibm.com From: Stephanie Fetzer <sfetzer@us.ibm.com> To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org Date: 18/11/2010 13:17 Subject: [DFDL-WG] Fw: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org All: On the DFDL WG call 17NOV2010 my concern was that this rule was added 'recently' but on closer review I see that it was just changed a bit ("discriminators" changed to "dfdl:discriminators"). Ruth, Alan and I are all in agreement that this rule is a throwback to an earlier discrimination schema and needs to be removed. The proposal is to remove the following from the spec: In section 7.4 : "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group I'm sending this email out with two purposes: 1. Does anyone disagree and believe that this rules is still relevant? 2. Is this change critical enough to amend the final spec or publish some form of errata to the specification? And if so, what is our next step? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect ----- Forwarded by Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM on 11/18/2010 07:54 AM ----- From: Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS, Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB Date: 11/17/2010 05:55 AM Subject: Re: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Stephanie I think you are correct. That statement is probably left over from when the discriminator confirmed the existence of a parent. Regards Alan Powell Development - MQSeries, Message Broker, ESB IBM Software Group, Application and Integration Middleware Software ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IBM MP211, Hursley Park Hursley, SO21 2JN United Kingdom Phone: +44-1962-815073 e-mail: alan_powell@uk.ibm.com From: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS To: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS Date: 16/11/2010 20:42 Subject: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Steve/Alan: Was just talking with Ruth about the discriminators and I think we've got something in the spec that we may need to remove in this area. Let me talk this out here first to see if perhaps I've remembered something incorrectly. In section 7.4 we have: "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group" This makes perfect sense in WTX. In WTX an identifier is placed on a component of a group. Then the identifier is proven to exist the parent exists. Allowing only one per the sequence is necessary in this scheme. In DFDL we place the discriminator on the component being discriminated. So we have a rule that points to ones children such as ..if present child2 then I exist. I can not see how the 'one per sequence' gets us anything in CT in most cases. We can't mean that only one of the parents in a sequence can contain a discriminator. In EDI each segment in a loop can have a discriminator. As we are using a rule at the parent it would be difficult (and not very useful) to restrict the rule to referencing only one child. So I'm confused - and I've confused Ruth. Can we take five minutes from the WG call to straighten me back out again please? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
Hi Steph 1. I agree the rule is incorrect. 2. There are several small things that need changing in the spec, so we will need either a re-issue or an errata. The former is preferable as we have only submitted to OGF editors at the moment, We should see what OGF editors allow. Regards Steve Hanson Strategy, Common Transformation & DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL WG IBM SWG, Hursley, UK, smh@uk.ibm.com, tel +44-(0)1962-815848 From: Stephanie Fetzer <sfetzer@us.ibm.com> To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org Date: 18/11/2010 13:17 Subject: [DFDL-WG] Fw: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org All: On the DFDL WG call 17NOV2010 my concern was that this rule was added 'recently' but on closer review I see that it was just changed a bit ("discriminators" changed to "dfdl:discriminators"). Ruth, Alan and I are all in agreement that this rule is a throwback to an earlier discrimination schema and needs to be removed. The proposal is to remove the following from the spec: In section 7.4 : "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group I'm sending this email out with two purposes: 1. Does anyone disagree and believe that this rules is still relevant? 2. Is this change critical enough to amend the final spec or publish some form of errata to the specification? And if so, what is our next step? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect ----- Forwarded by Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM on 11/18/2010 07:54 AM ----- From: Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS, Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB Date: 11/17/2010 05:55 AM Subject: Re: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Stephanie I think you are correct. That statement is probably left over from when the discriminator confirmed the existence of a parent. Regards Alan Powell Development - MQSeries, Message Broker, ESB IBM Software Group, Application and Integration Middleware Software ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IBM MP211, Hursley Park Hursley, SO21 2JN United Kingdom Phone: +44-1962-815073 e-mail: alan_powell@uk.ibm.com From: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS To: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS Date: 16/11/2010 20:42 Subject: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Steve/Alan: Was just talking with Ruth about the discriminators and I think we've got something in the spec that we may need to remove in this area. Let me talk this out here first to see if perhaps I've remembered something incorrectly. In section 7.4 we have: "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group" This makes perfect sense in WTX. In WTX an identifier is placed on a component of a group. Then the identifier is proven to exist the parent exists. Allowing only one per the sequence is necessary in this scheme. In DFDL we place the discriminator on the component being discriminated. So we have a rule that points to ones children such as ..if present child2 then I exist. I can not see how the 'one per sequence' gets us anything in CT in most cases. We can't mean that only one of the parents in a sequence can contain a discriminator. In EDI each segment in a loop can have a discriminator. As we are using a rule at the parent it would be difficult (and not very useful) to restrict the rule to referencing only one child. So I'm confused - and I've confused Ruth. Can we take five minutes from the WG call to straighten me back out again please? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
I think the rule should be 'at most one discriminator on an element or group'. If you have more than one discriminator then you have to define what happens if some of them pass and the others fail. regards, Tim Kimber, Common Transformation Team, Hursley, UK Internet: kimbert@uk.ibm.com Tel. 01962-816742 Internal tel. 246742 From: Stephanie Fetzer <sfetzer@us.ibm.com> To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org Date: 18/11/2010 13:17 Subject: [DFDL-WG] Fw: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org All: On the DFDL WG call 17NOV2010 my concern was that this rule was added 'recently' but on closer review I see that it was just changed a bit ("discriminators" changed to "dfdl:discriminators"). Ruth, Alan and I are all in agreement that this rule is a throwback to an earlier discrimination schema and needs to be removed. The proposal is to remove the following from the spec: In section 7.4 : "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group I'm sending this email out with two purposes: 1. Does anyone disagree and believe that this rules is still relevant? 2. Is this change critical enough to amend the final spec or publish some form of errata to the specification? And if so, what is our next step? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect ----- Forwarded by Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM on 11/18/2010 07:54 AM ----- From: Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS, Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB Date: 11/17/2010 05:55 AM Subject: Re: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Stephanie I think you are correct. That statement is probably left over from when the discriminator confirmed the existence of a parent. Regards Alan Powell Development - MQSeries, Message Broker, ESB IBM Software Group, Application and Integration Middleware Software ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IBM MP211, Hursley Park Hursley, SO21 2JN United Kingdom Phone: +44-1962-815073 e-mail: alan_powell@uk.ibm.com From: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS To: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS Date: 16/11/2010 20:42 Subject: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Steve/Alan: Was just talking with Ruth about the discriminators and I think we've got something in the spec that we may need to remove in this area. Let me talk this out here first to see if perhaps I've remembered something incorrectly. In section 7.4 we have: "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group" This makes perfect sense in WTX. In WTX an identifier is placed on a component of a group. Then the identifier is proven to exist the parent exists. Allowing only one per the sequence is necessary in this scheme. In DFDL we place the discriminator on the component being discriminated. So we have a rule that points to ones children such as ..if present child2 then I exist. I can not see how the 'one per sequence' gets us anything in CT in most cases. We can't mean that only one of the parents in a sequence can contain a discriminator. In EDI each segment in a loop can have a discriminator. As we are using a rule at the parent it would be difficult (and not very useful) to restrict the rule to referencing only one child. So I'm confused - and I've confused Ruth. Can we take five minutes from the WG call to straighten me back out again please? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
Yes, we have that part of the rule in the same section (directly above the rule in question). "Any one annotation point can contain only a single dfdl:discriminator or one or more dfdl:asserts but not both. It is a schema definition otherwise" That bit should remain, I believe it is just a matter of getting rid one the 'one within a sequence' line. Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect From: Tim Kimber <KIMBERT@uk.ibm.com> To: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS Cc: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Date: 11/18/2010 09:27 AM Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Fw: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth I think the rule should be 'at most one discriminator on an element or group'. If you have more than one discriminator then you have to define what happens if some of them pass and the others fail. regards, Tim Kimber, Common Transformation Team, Hursley, UK Internet: kimbert@uk.ibm.com Tel. 01962-816742 Internal tel. 246742 From: Stephanie Fetzer <sfetzer@us.ibm.com> To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org Date: 18/11/2010 13:17 Subject: [DFDL-WG] Fw: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org All: On the DFDL WG call 17NOV2010 my concern was that this rule was added 'recently' but on closer review I see that it was just changed a bit ("discriminators" changed to "dfdl:discriminators"). Ruth, Alan and I are all in agreement that this rule is a throwback to an earlier discrimination schema and needs to be removed. The proposal is to remove the following from the spec: In section 7.4 : "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group I'm sending this email out with two purposes: 1. Does anyone disagree and believe that this rules is still relevant? 2. Is this change critical enough to amend the final spec or publish some form of errata to the specification? And if so, what is our next step? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect ----- Forwarded by Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM on 11/18/2010 07:54 AM ----- From: Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS, Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB Date: 11/17/2010 05:55 AM Subject: Re: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Stephanie I think you are correct. That statement is probably left over from when the discriminator confirmed the existence of a parent. Regards Alan Powell Development - MQSeries, Message Broker, ESB IBM Software Group, Application and Integration Middleware Software ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IBM MP211, Hursley Park Hursley, SO21 2JN United Kingdom Phone: +44-1962-815073 e-mail: alan_powell@uk.ibm.com From: Stephanie Fetzer/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS To: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Alan Powell/UK/IBM@IBMGB Cc: Ruth Wiegand/Boca Raton/IBM@IBMUS Date: 16/11/2010 20:42 Subject: DFDL Discriminator - Question from Ruth Steve/Alan: Was just talking with Ruth about the discriminators and I think we've got something in the spec that we may need to remove in this area. Let me talk this out here first to see if perhaps I've remembered something incorrectly. In section 7.4 we have: "There can be at most one dfdl:discriminator within a sequence group. It is a schema definition error if there is more than one dfdl:discriminator annotation that applies to a single sequence group" This makes perfect sense in WTX. In WTX an identifier is placed on a component of a group. Then the identifier is proven to exist the parent exists. Allowing only one per the sequence is necessary in this scheme. In DFDL we place the discriminator on the component being discriminated. So we have a rule that points to ones children such as ..if present child2 then I exist. I can not see how the 'one per sequence' gets us anything in CT in most cases. We can't mean that only one of the parents in a sequence can contain a discriminator. In EDI each segment in a loop can have a discriminator. As we are using a rule at the parent it would be difficult (and not very useful) to restrict the rule to referencing only one child. So I'm confused - and I've confused Ruth. Can we take five minutes from the WG call to straighten me back out again please? Regards, Stephanie Fetzer WebSphere Transformation Extender (WTX) Industry Packs - Architect -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
participants (4)
-
Gerardo Brenner -
Stephanie Fetzer -
Steve Hanson -
Tim Kimber