comments in <tk>tags regards, Tim Kimber, IBM Integration Bus Development (Industry Packs) Hursley, UK Internet: kimbert@uk.ibm.com Tel. 01962-816742 Internal tel. 37246742 From: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM To: Tim Kimber/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Cc: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Date: 11/06/2014 10:47 Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Action 261 Some thoughts on this... I agree that the definition of positional sequence in the spec needs tightening as it is ambiguous as it stands and could be interpreted as a) or b). If we adopted b) then that would appear to allow 'expression' to appear in a positional sequence, but wouldn't it also allow 'stopValue'? <tk>Yes - according to definition b) stopValue would be allowable in a positional sequence. We could still disallow it if we do not believe there is any benefit in allowing it. I don't believe it introduces any particular complexities for an implementer.</tk> occursCountKind 'expression' is analogous to lengthKind 'explicit' with an expression and to lengthKind 'prefixed'. Both these lengthKinds are classified as 'specified length' when parsing but 'variable length' when unparsing. We are observing that occursCountKind 'expression' is like 'fixed' when parsing but not quite so like 'fixed' when unparsing - which is why section 16 groups 'expression' with 'parsed' for unparsing. <tk>Yes - we took a decision that the unparser should ignore the expression in lengthKind/occursCountKind, and just output whatever data happens to be in the info set. I'm not sure that it saves a lot of effort in the implementation and it certainly is not easy to justify as a consistent behaviour. For me, the unparser should treat lengthKind='explicit' the same way whether the value is static or calculated. And the unparser should treat lengthKind='expression' the same way as lengthKind='fixed'. </tk> When unparsing occursCountKind 'expression' you don't always have the calculated array length N. If the infoset was derived from XML, there is likely no 'count' element, just a bunch of elements with the same name that make up the 'array'. DFDL gives you the choice whether to manually set the count element, or to have the parser set it automatically via outputValueCalc. In the former case, you can create a document that can not be parsed; <tk>You can with the current rules too. In fact, you can parse a document with trailing optional empty array occurrences and when it is unparsed the trailing empty occurrences will have been discarded.</tk> the unparser could check the 'count' element matches the infoset, but that would involve reverse engineering an arbitrarily complex expression and is why the specification does not say that. <tk>It would involve evaluating the expression. In most cases, that will not require any lookahead because the Length/Count field will precede the array or element. Not sure where the reverse engineering comes in?</tk> Here's a real example of such an expression (albeit with lengthKind 'explicit' but the principle is the same): dfdl:length="{xs:nonNegativeInteger(fn:floor((../Length + 1) div 2))}" Alex brought up the case where the expression evaluates to 0. In a positional sequence, would you still expect a delimiter for this case? <tk>Yes, unless it is in the trailing optional region of the group and SSP='trailingEmpty'. In a positional sequence, every delimiter must be present until suppression begins ( if allowed )</tk> If 'yes' then the resultant zero length string must be treated as the 'absent representation' and ignored. If 'no' then is the sequence still positional? <tk>I don't understand the point. Why would it not be the 'empty representation'? Why must it be 'ignored' if it does happen to be the 'absent representation'? What does 'ignored' mean?</tk> Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 From: Tim Kimber/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, Date: 10/06/2014 21:22 Subject: [DFDL-WG] Action 261 Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Implied separatorSuppressionPolicy for occursCountKind 'expression ' (All) 10/6: Spec says it is 'never' (positional sequence) but you have to parse to identify the position, so isn't that non-positional? I think there are two alternative definitions of 'positional': a) the identity of every delimited field is known before parsing of the sequence group begins b) the identity of every delimited field is known before parsing of the field begins As an implementer, b) is sufficient because it means that the parser never needs to backtrack while parsing the group. a) allows the field identities to be statically known, but that is less important - it does not allow optimised extraction of a particular field as would be the case for a fixed-length group ( the possibility of escaped separators/terminators means that every character will need to be scanned anyway ). It may sound like a small point, but it affects two decisions 1. whether ock='expression' should be allowed within a positional sequence group ( action 261 ) 2. what the behaviour of the unparser should be w.r.t. ock='expression'. My own feeling is that ock='expression' should be treated almost exactly like ock='fixed', except that the calculated array length N is used instead of maxOccurs. - When parsing a positional sequence group it should cause N delimiters to be expected for the array. - When unparsing a positional sequence group it should cause N delimiters to be written. These rules are consistent and straightforward to describe and implement. The current rule ( unparser outputs the occurrences that are in the info set only ) allows the unparser to write a document that cannot be parsed using the same schema. regards, Tim Kimber, ----- Forwarded by Tim Kimber/UK/IBM on 10/06/2014 20:34 ----- From: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, Date: 10/06/2014 17:57 Subject: [DFDL-WG] OGF DFDL WG Call Minutes 2014-06-10 Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Please find minutes from the above call at http://redmine.ogf.org/dmsf_files/13263?download= Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL, Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org https://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org https://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
Replies in <smh> tags Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 From: Tim Kimber/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, Date: 11/06/2014 13:58 Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Action 261 Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org comments in <tk>tags regards, Tim Kimber, IBM Integration Bus Development (Industry Packs) Hursley, UK Internet: kimbert@uk.ibm.com Tel. 01962-816742 Internal tel. 37246742 From: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM To: Tim Kimber/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Cc: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Date: 11/06/2014 10:47 Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Action 261 Some thoughts on this... I agree that the definition of positional sequence in the spec needs tightening as it is ambiguous as it stands and could be interpreted as a) or b). If we adopted b) then that would appear to allow 'expression' to appear in a positional sequence, but wouldn't it also allow 'stopValue'? <tk>Yes - according to definition b) stopValue would be allowable in a positional sequence. We could still disallow it if we do not believe there is any benefit in allowing it. I don't believe it introduces any particular complexities for an implementer.</tk> occursCountKind 'expression' is analogous to lengthKind 'explicit' with an expression and to lengthKind 'prefixed'. Both these lengthKinds are classified as 'specified length' when parsing but 'variable length' when unparsing. We are observing that occursCountKind 'expression' is like 'fixed' when parsing but not quite so like 'fixed' when unparsing - which is why section 16 groups 'expression' with 'parsed' for unparsing. <tk>Yes - we took a decision that the unparser should ignore the expression in lengthKind/occursCountKind, and just output whatever data happens to be in the info set. I'm not sure that it saves a lot of effort in the implementation and it certainly is not easy to justify as a consistent behaviour. For me, the unparser should treat lengthKind='explicit' the same way whether the value is static or calculated. And the unparser should treat occursCountKind='expression' the same way as occursCountKind='fixed'. </tk> When unparsing occursCountKind 'expression' you don't always have the calculated array length N. If the infoset was derived from XML, there is likely no 'count' element, just a bunch of elements with the same name that make up the 'array'. DFDL gives you the choice whether to a) manually set the count element, or b) have the unparser set it automatically via outputValueCalc. In the former case, you can create a document that can not be parsed; the unparser could check the 'count' element matches the infoset, but that would involve reverse engineering an arbitrarily complex expression and is why the specification does not say that. <tk>It would involve evaluating the expression. In most cases, that will not require any lookahead because the Length/Count field will precede the array or element. Not sure where the reverse engineering comes in?</tk> <smh>I see what you are saying. Just evaluate the expression and see what it gives for N. That handles case a) but not b) where I explicitly want the unparser to set the count via outputValueCalc - which is presumably referring to the number of elements in the array, which is not known. For case b) N has to be the number in the infoset. Given that we have to support case b) the unparser can not treat occursCountKind 'expression' exactly the same as 'fixed' when unparsing.</smh> <smh>Similarly with lengthKind 'explicit' with an expression. For the equivalent to case a) the length is known which makes the length fixed, but for the equivalent of case b) with outputValueCalc the length is not known so it is variable. When this was discussed in the past, it was decided not to bifurcate the expression scenario. Hence the spec is the way it is. </smh> Here's a real example of such an expression (albeit with lengthKind 'explicit' but the principle is the same): dfdl:length="{xs:nonNegativeInteger(fn:floor((../Length + 1) div 2))}" Alex brought up the case where the expression evaluates to 0. In a positional sequence, would you still expect a delimiter for this case? <tk>Yes, unless it is in the trailing optional region of the group and SSP='trailingEmpty'. In a positional sequence, every delimiter must be present until suppression begins ( if allowed )</tk> If 'yes' then the resultant zero length string must be treated as the 'absent representation' and ignored. If 'no' then is the sequence still positional? <tk>I don't understand the point. Why would it not be the 'empty representation'? Why must it be 'ignored' if it does happen to be the 'absent representation'? What does 'ignored' mean?</tk> <smh>The point is that the parser has been told there are 0 occurrences. So it would be odd if the infoset ended up containing an occurrence, which can happen if the normal nil/empty rules are followed. (Eg, nilValue=%ES;). Hence the 0 occurrence case must treat it as absent which means nothing is added to the infoset. Take the ISO8583 bitmap use case - if the bit is 0 we must not try to parse anything at all for that element - it is totally absent.</smh> Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 From: Tim Kimber/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, Date: 10/06/2014 21:22 Subject: [DFDL-WG] Action 261 Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Implied separatorSuppressionPolicy for occursCountKind 'expression ' (All) 10/6: Spec says it is 'never' (positional sequence) but you have to parse to identify the position, so isn't that non-positional? I think there are two alternative definitions of 'positional': a) the identity of every delimited field is known before parsing of the sequence group begins b) the identity of every delimited field is known before parsing of the field begins As an implementer, b) is sufficient because it means that the parser never needs to backtrack while parsing the group. a) allows the field identities to be statically known, but that is less important - it does not allow optimised extraction of a particular field as would be the case for a fixed-length group ( the possibility of escaped separators/terminators means that every character will need to be scanned anyway ). It may sound like a small point, but it affects two decisions 1. whether ock='expression' should be allowed within a positional sequence group ( action 261 ) 2. what the behaviour of the unparser should be w.r.t. ock='expression'. My own feeling is that ock='expression' should be treated almost exactly like ock='fixed', except that the calculated array length N is used instead of maxOccurs. - When parsing a positional sequence group it should cause N delimiters to be expected for the array. - When unparsing a positional sequence group it should cause N delimiters to be written. These rules are consistent and straightforward to describe and implement. The current rule ( unparser outputs the occurrences that are in the info set only ) allows the unparser to write a document that cannot be parsed using the same schema. regards, Tim Kimber, ----- Forwarded by Tim Kimber/UK/IBM on 10/06/2014 20:34 ----- From: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: dfdl-wg@ogf.org, Date: 10/06/2014 17:57 Subject: [DFDL-WG] OGF DFDL WG Call Minutes 2014-06-10 Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Please find minutes from the above call at http://redmine.ogf.org/dmsf_files/13263?download= Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL, Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org https://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org https://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org https://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
participants (2)
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Steve Hanson -
Tim Kimber