Spec updates in this tracker http://redmine.ogf.org/issues/245. Note that a fixed length element with length 0 can have an empty representation, it's only those that have non-zero length that can't. Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 ----- Forwarded by Steve Hanson/UK/IBM on 26/11/2014 10:28 ----- From: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB To: Mike Beckerle <mbeckerle.dfdl@gmail.com> Cc: DFDL-WG <dfdl-wg@ogf.org> Date: 18/11/2014 17:49 Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Action 272: Catch 22.for EVDP & NVDP ? Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org Review for next call please. Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 From: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM To: Mike Beckerle <mbeckerle.dfdl@gmail.com>, DFDL-WG <dfdl-wg@ogf.org> Date: 28/10/2014 14:48 Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Catch 22.for EVDP & NVDP ? Thinking through the implications of having EVDP not apply if content length can not be zero: 1) Cases are dfdl:lengthKind 'explicit', dfdl:length not an expression and not zero, and (simple only) dfdl:lengthKind 'implicit' and maxLength facet not zero. 2) Does it mean a) that there is no concept of an empty representation, or b) that there is but it is not subject to EVDP and 'effective' EVDP is 'none' ? - If b) that does not fix the issue around initiatedContent, - if a) it means not finding the element must be taken as missing which implies no default value can be applied. Hmm 3) What about NVDP ? Should we be disallowing the use of %ES; as a nil value for these cases as well ? Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 From: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM To: Mike Beckerle <mbeckerle.dfdl@gmail.com> Cc: "dfdl-wg@ogf.org" <dfdl-wg@ogf.org> Date: 17/09/2014 15:44 Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Catch 22.for EVDP & NVDP ? Having thought this through I think that you are correct. If the content length can never be 0 then EVDP does not apply. I think IBM DFDL is issuing an error when it should not be. Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 From: Mike Beckerle <mbeckerle.dfdl@gmail.com> To: Steve Hanson/UK/IBM@IBMGB, Cc: "dfdl-wg@ogf.org" <dfdl-wg@ogf.org> Date: 09/09/2014 15:37 Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] Catch 22.for EVDP & NVDP ? Interesting. To me if lengthKind is explicit, and non-variable (i.e., is fixed length), then EVDP doesn't apply, because by definition, such a representation is not ever empty. I would assume that EVDP would be ignored in such a case, and an implementation might even generate warnings if dfdl:emptyValueDelimiterPolicy appeared directly on such an element or simpleType where a fixed length is also expressed. This is one of the challenges that having lengthKind 'explicit' which handles both the fixed length, and variable-length using an expression, creates. Even though we don't have a lengthKind 'fixed', we still have fixed-length as a concept, and some other features interact with fixed length, like empty values. Mike Beckerle | OGF DFDL Workgroup Co-Chair | Tresys Technology | www.tresys.com Please note: Contributions to the DFDL Workgroup's email discussions are subject to the OGF Intellectual Property Policy On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Steve Hanson <smh@uk.ibm.com> wrote: <xs:element name="choiceGroup" dfdl:lengthKind="implicit"> <xs:complexType> <xs:choice dfdl:choiceLengthKind="implicit" dfdl:initiatedContent="yes"> <xs:element name="myNum1" type="xs:int" dfdl:lengthKind="explicit" dfdl:length="2" dfdl:textNumberPattern="#0" dfdl:initiator="num:" dfdl:terminator="~" /> > <xs:element name="myText1" type="xs:string" dfdl:lengthKind="explicit" dfdl:length="2" dfdl:initiator="text:" dfdl:terminator="~" /> </xs:choice> </xs:complexType> </xs:element> The above model is a choice of two elements, each of which is fixed length and has an initiator and terminator. Because the elements are fixed length, I must set dfdl:emptyValueDelimiterPolicy (EVDP) to be 'none' **. I also want to discriminate using the initiator, so I set dfdl:initiatedContent 'yes' on the choice, so I must set EVDP to 'initiator' or 'both' ++. (Same for NVDP if nillable). Catch 22. ** 'none' because the only valid empty representation is that there is nothing there at all. The element is fixed length X, so if the delimiters are present then the content must be length X and can't be zero length. ++ 'initiator' or 'both' because an initiator must always be present when dfdl:initiatedContent 'yes'. The implication is that I can't use dfdl:initiatedContent for this choice. While I can switch off nillable to avoid the error with NVDP, there is no other way of avoiding the EVDP error. Regards Steve Hanson Architect, IBM DFDL Co-Chair, OGF DFDL Working Group IBM SWG, Hursley, UK smh@uk.ibm.com tel:+44-1962-815848 Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org https://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org https://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU