Yes - agreed. It makes sense that for parsing when delimiters are in scope that if we hit a non-delimited length that we 'turn off scanning'. If everyone is agreed on that then.. The decision to be made here is how we will handle elements with length requirements while parsing when delimiters in scope: 1. We can allow and use dfdl:length for components with lengthKind="delimited"...in a check that will occur after the element is initially parsed (via delimiter) 2. We can disallow the use of dfdl:length for components with lengthKind="delimited"...and require that any length constraints be placed on such components via an assert. An error or a warning will be generated if dfdl:length is defined explicitly on a component with lengthKind="delimited" 3. We can ignore the use of dfdl:length for components with lengthKind="delimited"...and require that any length constraints be placed on such components via an assert. Any other options? Which way are we leaning on this? Cheers, -Steph WebSphere Transformation Extender Industry Packs - Software Engineer From: DFDL <mbeckerle.dfdl@gmail.com> To: Tim Kimber <KIMBERT@uk.ibm.com> Cc: "dfdl-wg@ogf.org" <dfdl-wg@ogf.org> Date: 11/18/2009 08:54 PM Subject: Re: [DFDL-WG] How to determine the length of an element which has text representation Sent by: dfdl-wg-bounces@ogf.org I support tim's view here. There needs to be an idiomatic way to shut off scanning. Rep='binary' is much too obscure. Question: which other length kinds should switch off scanning? Prefix? Implicit? None of these? ...mikeb On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Tim Kimber <KIMBERT@uk.ibm.com> wrote: I'd like to record what was discussed and raise another point which Alan pointed out after meeting, Discussions in the meeting - dfdl:lengthKind applies only to the element on which it is specified. It has no effect whatever on the parsing of child elements/groups. - there may be some value in tolerating simple elements of type xs:string with dfdl:representation="binary". Might be useful for schemas where dfdl:representation="binary" throughout. - Currently, the position of the WG is that parsers should *always* scan to extract the text representation if there is any terminating markup in scope. Even if lengthKind='explicit'. - TK proposed the scheme outlined in his previous email, in which dfdl:lengthKind alone specifies how the parser should extract the text representation. If lengthKind="explicit", scanning is switched off and dfdl:length is used. If lengthKind="delimited" the text rep is extracted by scanning and length is ignored. - A refinement was discussed whereby dfdl:length would be checked after a scan has been performed if dfdl:lengthKind="delimited". This would make the modeling of some common formats simpler, and avoid the need for a dfdl:assert to enforce the length constraint. - MB raised the possibility that we could actually disallow dfdl:length if lengthKind='delimited'. This is the most conservative position, but general opinion was that it would be too restrictive. There still might be some value in disallowing dfdl:length for other lengthKinds. Discussions after the meeting - Alan pointed out that lengthKind="explicit" does not necessarily mean that the length of the field is fixed. dfdl:length might be specified as a DFDL expression. A common reason for doing that would be to obtain the element's length from an earlier integer field. As currently specified, if there was any markup in scope, the text rep would be extracted by scanning. Restatement of my position after today's meeting: I'm now even more convinced that dfdl:lengthKind="explicit" should switch off scanning. Here's why: a) The enumerations of lengthKind are explicit, implicit, prefixed, delimited, pattern, endOfParent. The presence of 'delimited' in that list means that in some users' minds, the other enumerations are going to be interpreted as *alternatives* to 'delimited'. b) If there's markup in scope, scanning cannot be switched off by any means. Not even by setting lengthKind='explicit' AND obtaining dfdl:length from a previous integer field. I think that's very counter-intuitive. regards, Tim Kimber, Common Transformation Team, Hursley, UK Internet: kimbert@uk.ibm.com Tel. 01962-816742 Internal tel. 246742 Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg-- dfdl-wg mailing list dfdl-wg@ogf.org http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/dfdl-wg