Nobody Understands Cryptocurrency, And That's Ok

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grarpamp

16 Oct 2017 16 Oct '17

5:53 p.m.

https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok/

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juan

16 Oct 16 Oct

7:11 p.m.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:53:32 -0400 grarpamp wrote:

...

https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok/

uh oh - no, people not understanding the systems they use is not OK. Aa a matter of fact it is a serious problem.

I think Bitcoin does not understand bitcoin. The four crossroads of "Why Bitcoin is Hard to Understand" is identical to physical currency: 1) Game theory. 2) Irreproducability 3) Secure transfer where the system needs it. 4) Economic and monetary theory (really part of #1) What bitcoin NEEDS TO DO is restrict itself to the Creative Economy (limit itself for purchase and exchange of purely informatic goods, like news, music, etc.) and THEN see how bitcoin translates into physical "real-world" currency. That is, it makes no sense to compare or exchange physical currency to bitcoin as bitcoin is not associated with actual real-world value (like oil, metals -- things that have intrinsic value and hard to reproduce). If bitcoin were to become THE only currency for informatic goods on the internet, exchanged predominantly *virtually*, then it doesn't matter the "exchange rate". because its value is entirely related to how people value the informatic goods online. Perhaps someone will give 1000 bitcoin for song A, while another will give 1 bitcoin -- the system will work to equalize and evaluate the virtual goods online. Here's how I solved this problem in the Pangaia system. Give 1 bitcoin for each vote given online for whatever 3rd party (not affiliated with bitcoin) website that allows you to express your opinion. UNDERSTAND THIS: Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits. Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES. That's the only way to make it work. Marxos Expressing the ou could make the bitcoin like monopoly money and give 1 bit Marxos On 10/16/17, juan wrote:

...

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:53:32 -0400 grarpamp wrote:

...
https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok/

uh oh - no, people not understanding the systems they use is not OK. Aa a matter of fact it is a serious problem.

juan

9:21 p.m.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:20:56 -0500 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...

What bitcoin NEEDS TO DO is restrict itself to the Creative Economy

why? and restricted by whom?

...

(limit itself for purchase and exchange of purely informatic goods, like news, music, etc.) and THEN see how bitcoin translates into physical "real-world" currency. That is, it makes no sense to compare or exchange physical currency to bitcoin as bitcoin is not associated with actual real-world value

what's that supposed to mean? Although bitcoin is not commodity money and so it doesn't have any value apart from being an accounting mechanism, bitcoin's virtual' value can be associated with anything....

...

(like oil, metals -- things that have intrinsic value and hard to reproduce).

...still you can use bitcoin to pay for those, just like you can use the even more worthless govt money. It's not an ideal situation but it kinda works...

...

If bitcoin were to become THE only currency for informatic goods on the internet, exchanged predominantly *virtually*, then it doesn't matter the "exchange rate". because its value is entirely related to how people value the informatic goods online. Perhaps someone will give 1000 bitcoin for song A,

lol I thought we 'agreed' that there's no software theft cause there's no software property...so you don't need to pay shit for songs...

...

while another will give 1 bitcoin -- the system will work to equalize and evaluate the virtual goods online.

Here's how I solved this problem in the Pangaia system. Give 1 bitcoin for each vote given online for whatever 3rd party (not affiliated with bitcoin) website that allows you to express your opinion.

UNDERSTAND THIS:

Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits.

Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES.

That's the only way to make it work.

it's not even clear what problem you think you are solving....

...

Marxos

Expressing the ou could make the bitcoin like monopoly money and give 1 bit

Marxos

On 10/16/17, juan wrote:

...
On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:53:32 -0400 grarpamp wrote:

...
https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok/

uh oh - no, people not understanding the systems they use is not OK. Aa a matter of fact it is a serious problem.

\0xDynamite

11:02 p.m.

On 10/16/17, juan wrote:

...

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:20:56 -0500 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...
What bitcoin NEEDS TO DO is restrict itself to the Creative Economy

why? and restricted by whom?

Why? So it can understand itself? By whom? By Mr. and Mrs. Better Reason.

...

...
(limit itself for purchase and exchange of purely informatic goods, like news, music, etc.) and THEN see how bitcoin translates into physical "real-world" currency. That is, it makes no sense to compare or exchange physical currency to bitcoin as bitcoin is not associated with actual real-world value

what's that supposed to mean? Although bitcoin is not commodity money and so it doesn't have any value apart from being an accounting mechanism, bitcoin's virtual' value can be associated with anything....

You don't understand. I see.

...

...
(like oil, metals -- things that have intrinsic value and hard to reproduce).

...still you can use bitcoin to pay for those, just like you can use the even more worthless govt money. It's not an ideal situation but it kinda works...

To my knowledge, no one has given any gold or oil in exchange for a made up currency like bitboin. Why? Because it doesn't know how to do what the US has done -- even if the US did it without understanding it. (The US accidently made its dollar tied to a real value by limited inflation. Their monitoring of inflation made it get tied (without them probably even knowing it) to oil and perhaps ag production)). This is what has made US currency the most valuable.

...

...
If bitcoin were to become THE only currency for informatic goods on the internet, exchanged predominantly *virtually*, then it doesn't matter the "exchange rate". because its value is entirely related to how people value the informatic goods online. Perhaps someone will give 1000 bitcoin for song A,

...

lol I thought we 'agreed' that there's no software theft cause there's no software property...so you don't need to pay shit for songs...

That's right you don't NEED to. But what do you do when no one produces any songs because they can't get enough money to produce them?

...

...
while another will give 1 bitcoin -- the system will work to equalize and evaluate the virtual goods online.

Here's how I solved this problem in the Pangaia system. Give 1 bitcoin for each vote given online for whatever 3rd party (not affiliated with bitcoin) website that allows you to express your opinion.

UNDERSTAND THIS:

Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits.

Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES.

That's the only way to make it work.

it's not even clear what problem you think you are solving....

The problem is that Bitcoin is a solution in NEED of a problem. You get it? The problem is that: * people want to trade stuff online, * they also want better quality stuff availble online, * also want avoid giving credit card data online * some want to disassociate with US currency People with sound economic knowledge want these things also: * currency that is associated with actual value that is difficult to reproduce * is easily passable * makes producing social value more efficient. The suggestions given will accomplish that by tying bitcoins to the unit value of virtual WORK (your opinion expressed by a vote). Marxos So how are you going to do that

juan

17 Oct 17 Oct

12:42 a.m.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 23:02:01 +0000 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...

On 10/16/17, juan wrote:

...
On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:20:56 -0500 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...
What bitcoin NEEDS TO DO is restrict itself to the Creative Economy

why? and restricted by whom?

Why? So it can understand itself?

what?

...

By whom? By Mr. and Mrs. Better Reason.

...

...
...
(limit itself for purchase and exchange of purely informatic goods, like news, music, etc.) and THEN see how bitcoin translates into physical "real-world" currency. That is, it makes no sense to compare or exchange physical currency to bitcoin as bitcoin is not associated with actual real-world value

what's that supposed to mean? Although bitcoin is not commodity money and so it doesn't have any value apart from being an accounting mechanism, bitcoin's virtual' value can be associated with anything....

You don't understand. I see.

Yeah well. You know fuck about basic economics?

...

...
...
(like oil, metals -- things that have intrinsic value and hard to reproduce).

...still you can use bitcoin to pay for those, just like you can use the even more worthless govt money. It's not an ideal situation but it kinda works...

To my knowledge, no one has given any gold or oil in exchange for a made up currency like bitboin. Why? Because it doesn't know how to do what the US has done -- even if the US did it without understanding it.

bitcoin is less of a made up currency than the US dollar or any other govt money. Surely you realize that?

...

(The US accidently made its dollar tied to a real value by limited inflation. Their monitoring of inflation made it get tied (without them probably even knowing it) to oil and perhaps ag production)). This is what has made US currency the most valuable.

In other words you know exactly fuck about economics and are an apologist of the US nazi currency. 'limited' inflation isn't the only reason why the dollar is kinda 'accepted'. The real reason is GUNS. And obviously the dolar isn't 'tied' to oil since the oil price in dollars...you know...changes. Or perhaps you don't know that? Also, bitcoin inflation is a lot smaller than paper money inflation. So as per your own logic it should have more 'value'. And, so far, it does.

...

...
...
If bitcoin were to become THE only currency for informatic goods on the internet, exchanged predominantly *virtually*, then it doesn't matter the "exchange rate". because its value is entirely related to how people value the informatic goods online. Perhaps someone will give 1000 bitcoin for song A,

...
lol I thought we 'agreed' that there's no software theft cause there's no software property...so you don't need to pay shit for songs...

That's right you don't NEED to. But what do you do when no one produces any songs because they can't get enough money to produce them?

dude - go learn the ABC of arguments against your pro intellectual property bullshit. I'm not going to repeat them here. your fucking songwriters can sell hot dogs on the street and then go home and write songs.

...

The problem is that Bitcoin is a solution in NEED of a problem. You get it?

You are out of your fucking mind, aren't you? Bitcoin would prevent your fucking nazi government from printing trillions of fake money. Ditto for any other government. At any rate, you've made it quite clear that you don't understand how money counterfeiting by govt is a very serious problem and how bitcoin solves it. It of course can be argued that there are better ways to solve that problem but I don't expect you to make those arguments.

...

The problem is that: * people want to trade stuff online, * they also want better quality stuff availble online, * also want avoid giving credit card data online * some want to disassociate with US currency

People with sound economic knowledge want these things also:

* currency that is associated with actual value that is difficult to reproduce * is easily passable * makes producing social value more efficient.

The suggestions given will accomplish that by tying bitcoins to the unit value of virtual WORK (your opinion expressed by a vote).

Marxos

So how are you going to do that

I don't have to do anything. You on the other have to go learn the ABC of economic theory.

\0xDynamite

18 Oct 18 Oct

1:40 a.m.

...

...
Why? So it can understand itself?

what?

I didn't mean to end the last sentence with a question mark. It was a declarative statement.

...

...
By whom? By Mr. and Mrs. Better Reason.

...

EXACTLY.

...

...
...
what's that supposed to mean? Although bitcoin is not commodity money and so it doesn't have any value apart from being an accounting mechanism, bitcoin's virtual' value can be associated with anything....

You don't understand. I see.

Yeah well. You know fuck about basic economics?

Yes.

...

...
(The US accidently made its dollar tied to a real value by limited inflation. Their monitoring of inflation made it get tied (without them probably even knowing it) to oil and perhaps ag production)). This is what has made US currency the most valuable.

In other words you know exactly fuck about economics and are an apologist of the US nazi currency. 'limited' inflation isn't the only reason why the dollar is kinda 'accepted'.

Listen, I'm sorry you're broke, but if you feel the need for money, consider that animals don't have any at all. So the real issue is who took your natural-born right (if you believe in the Biblical code) to have land?

...

The real reason is GUNS. And obviously the dolar isn't 'tied' to oil since the oil price in dollars...you know...changes. Or perhaps you don't know that?

No, that keeps you from STEALING money.

...

Also, bitcoin inflation is a lot smaller than paper money inflation. So as per your own logic it should have more 'value'. And, so far, it does.

Has anyone actually analyzed the rate at which people will accept Bitcoin for actual goods they produce? I mean, will an artist accept 1 Bitcoin for a $10 CD? Or do they inflate the cost of the good to handle their constructed idea of risk for handling things in bitcoins?

...

...
That's right you don't NEED to. But what do you do when no one produces any songs because they can't get enough money to produce them?

dude - go learn the ABC of arguments against your pro intellectual property bullshit. I'm not going to repeat them here.

You mean "you heard this argument before in a pro-IP conversation", yet that doesn't invalidate the argument.

...

your fucking songwriters can sell hot dogs on the street and then go home and write songs.

Yeah, but if you want to create a real solution with bitcoin, you want a solution where they can write songs, get paid with bitcoin, and chillout and see what else there is to do in the world.

...

...
The problem is that Bitcoin is a solution in NEED of a problem. You get it?

You are out of your fucking mind, aren't you? Bitcoin would prevent your fucking nazi government from printing trillions of fake money. Ditto for any other government.

It's not fake, if you're using it, is it? You apparently believe in it, so what is the real problem? marxos

\0xDynamite

1:52 a.m.

Sorry, I didn't know that Bitcoins were being bought at $4000 and above. So the example above about the CD should be something mroe like this: :Will you sell me your car if I give you 1BTC? What do you say? Marxos On 10/18/17, \0xDynamite wrote:

...

...
...
Why? So it can understand itself?

what?

I didn't mean to end the last sentence with a question mark. It was a declarative statement.

...
...
By whom? By Mr. and Mrs. Better Reason.

...

EXACTLY.

...
...
...
what's that supposed to mean? Although bitcoin is not commodity money and so it doesn't have any value apart from being an accounting mechanism, bitcoin's virtual' value can be associated with anything....

You don't understand. I see.

Yeah well. You know fuck about basic economics?

Yes.

...
...
(The US accidently made its dollar tied to a real value by limited inflation. Their monitoring of inflation made it get tied (without them probably even knowing it) to oil and perhaps ag production)). This is what has made US currency the most valuable.

In other words you know exactly fuck about economics and are an apologist of the US nazi currency. 'limited' inflation isn't the only reason why the dollar is kinda 'accepted'.

Listen, I'm sorry you're broke, but if you feel the need for money, consider that animals don't have any at all. So the real issue is who took your natural-born right (if you believe in the Biblical code) to have land?

...
The real reason is GUNS. And obviously the dolar isn't 'tied' to oil since the oil price in dollars...you know...changes. Or perhaps you don't know that?

No, that keeps you from STEALING money.

...
Also, bitcoin inflation is a lot smaller than paper money inflation. So as per your own logic it should have more 'value'. And, so far, it does.

Has anyone actually analyzed the rate at which people will accept Bitcoin for actual goods they produce? I mean, will an artist accept 1 Bitcoin for a $10 CD? Or do they inflate the cost of the good to handle their constructed idea of risk for handling things in bitcoins?

...
...
That's right you don't NEED to. But what do you do when no one produces any songs because they can't get enough money to produce them?

dude - go learn the ABC of arguments against your pro intellectual property bullshit. I'm not going to repeat them here.

You mean "you heard this argument before in a pro-IP conversation", yet that doesn't invalidate the argument.

...
your fucking songwriters can sell hot dogs on the street and then go home and write songs.

Yeah, but if you want to create a real solution with bitcoin, you want a solution where they can write songs, get paid with bitcoin, and chillout and see what else there is to do in the world.

...
...
The problem is that Bitcoin is a solution in NEED of a problem. You get it?

You are out of your fucking mind, aren't you? Bitcoin would prevent your fucking nazi government from printing trillions of fake money. Ditto for any other government.

It's not fake, if you're using it, is it? You apparently believe in it, so what is the real problem?

marxos

juan

2:06 a.m.

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 01:52:59 +0000 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...

Sorry, I didn't know that Bitcoins were being bought at $4000 and above.

So the example above about the CD should be something mroe like this:

:Will you sell me your car if I give you 1BTC?

What do you say?

I don't have a car. I've no problem selling you other stuff for btc, though admitedly I wouldn't want to hold too much btc because btc exists at the whim of government.

\0xDynamite

2:13 a.m.

...

...
:Will you sell me your car if I give you 1BTC?

What do you say?

I don't have a car. I've no problem selling you other stuff for btc, though admitedly I wouldn't want to hold too much btc because btc exists at the whim of government.

Okay, what would you give me, from the physical world if I gave you this little disk holding 1BTC? Marxos

juan

2:02 a.m.

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 01:40:40 +0000 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...

Listen, I'm sorry you're broke, but if you feel the need for money,

I bet I spend a lot less money than you - an american - do.

...

consider that animals don't have any at all. So the real issue is who took your natural-born right (if you believe in the Biblical code) to have land?

natural rights have fuck to do with that piece of sick shit known as the bible. And wait you are a "doctor of theology" too, right?

...

...
The real reason is GUNS. And obviously the dolar isn't 'tied' to oil since the oil price in dollars...you know...changes. Or perhaps you don't know that?

No, that keeps you from STEALING money.

OK. I should't really have bothered with you. But I'll state it again, for the record : you are a fucking apologist of the US system of fake money and global looting. Fucking US doillar is backed by the biggest most criminal army on the planet. That's where the dollar's 'value' comes from.

...

...
Also, bitcoin inflation is a lot smaller than paper money inflation. So as per your own logic it should have more 'value'. And, so far, it does.

Has anyone actually analyzed the rate at which people will accept Bitcoin for actual goods they produce? I mean, will an artist accept 1 Bitcoin for a $10 CD? Or do they inflate the cost of the good to handle their constructed idea of risk for handling things in bitcoins?

...
...
That's right you don't NEED to. But what do you do when no one produces any songs because they can't get enough money to produce them?

dude - go learn the ABC of arguments against your pro intellectual property bullshit. I'm not going to repeat them here.

You mean "you heard this argument before in a pro-IP conversation", yet that doesn't invalidate the argument.

...
your fucking songwriters can sell hot dogs on the street and then go home and write songs.

Yeah, but if you want to create a real solution with bitcoin, you want a solution where they can write songs, get paid with bitcoin, and chillout and see what else there is to do in the world.

...
...
The problem is that Bitcoin is a solution in NEED of a problem. You get it?

You are out of your fucking mind, aren't you? Bitcoin would prevent your fucking nazi government from printing trillions of fake money. Ditto for any other government.

It's not fake, if you're using it, is it? You apparently believe in it, so what is the real problem?

marxos

John Newman

17 Oct 17 Oct

4:51 p.m.

...

On Oct 16, 2017, at 7:02 PM, \0xDynamite wrote:

...
On 10/16/17, juan wrote: On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:20:56 -0500 "\\0xDynamite" wrote:

...
What bitcoin NEEDS TO DO is restrict itself to the Creative Economy

why? and restricted by whom?

Why? So it can understand itself? By whom? By Mr. and Mrs. Better Reason.

...
...
(limit itself for purchase and exchange of purely informatic goods, like news, music, etc.) and THEN see how bitcoin translates into physical "real-world" currency. That is, it makes no sense to compare or exchange physical currency to bitcoin as bitcoin is not associated with actual real-world value

what's that supposed to mean? Although bitcoin is not commodity money and so it doesn't have any value apart from being an accounting mechanism, bitcoin's virtual' value can be associated with anything....

You don't understand. I see.

...
...
(like oil, metals -- things that have intrinsic value and hard to reproduce).

...still you can use bitcoin to pay for those, just like you can use the even more worthless govt money. It's not an ideal situation but it kinda works...

To my knowledge, no one has given any gold or oil in exchange for a made up currency like bitboin. Why?

Wrong. What the hell are you on about? Mining coins costs JUICE (electricity) - which comes out of burning carbon, or some other method which has to be paid for. This is one of the reasons desperate Venezuelans got big into mining - their collapsing government subsidizes the power bill, giving them a nice advantage when it comes to mining, and a way to put some food on the table.

...

Because it doesn't know how to do what the US has done -- even if the US did it without understanding it. (The US accidently made its dollar tied to a real value by limited inflation. Their monitoring of inflation made it get tied (without them probably even knowing it) to oil and perhaps ag production)). This is what has made US currency the most valuable.

The US knew exactly what they were doing when they tied OPEC to the us dollar.

...

...
...
If bitcoin were to become THE only currency for informatic goods on the internet, exchanged predominantly *virtually*, then it doesn't matter the "exchange rate". because its value is entirely related to how people value the informatic goods online. Perhaps someone will give 1000 bitcoin for song A,

...
lol I thought we 'agreed' that there's no software theft cause there's no software property...so you don't need to pay shit for songs...

That's right you don't NEED to. But what do you do when no one produces any songs because they can't get enough money to produce them?

...
...
while another will give 1 bitcoin -- the system will work to equalize and evaluate the virtual goods online.

Here's how I solved this problem in the Pangaia system. Give 1 bitcoin for each vote given online for whatever 3rd party (not affiliated with bitcoin) website that allows you to express your opinion.

UNDERSTAND THIS:

Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits.

Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES.

That's the only way to make it work.

it's not even clear what problem you think you are solving....

The problem is that Bitcoin is a solution in NEED of a problem. You get it?

The problem is that: * people want to trade stuff online, * they also want better quality stuff availble online, * also want avoid giving credit card data online * some want to disassociate with US currency

People with sound economic knowledge want these things also:

* currency that is associated with actual value that is difficult to reproduce * is easily passable * makes producing social value more efficient.

The suggestions given will accomplish that by tying bitcoins to the unit value of virtual WORK (your opinion expressed by a vote).

Marxos

So how are you going to do that

Zenaan Harkness

16 Oct 16 Oct

11:12 p.m.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 03:20:56PM -0500, \0xDynamite wrote:

...

I think Bitcoin does not understand bitcoin.

...

UNDERSTAND THIS:

Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits.

Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES.

Nice in theory, but no, any Cabal coin can be tied to physical stuff no problems, thus creating an actual Cabal-controlled (± thus manipulated) value for their particular central coin.

\0xDynamite

11:16 p.m.

...

...
Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits.

Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES.

Nice in theory,

Hold it right there. You admit the theory is sound (or at least partially sound), so then on what basis are you basing YOUR currency?

...

but no, any Cabal coin can be tied to physical stuff no problems,

I believe by "Cabal" you mean "agreed upon by the currency producers". Let's call it the "Treasury". (get it? treasure: like a pirate's horde)

...

thus creating an actual Cabal-controlled

Treasury controlled

...

(ą thus manipulated) value

How will it get manipulated just because someone has to agree to its production?

...

for their particular central coin.

....Ummm, right. Marxos

Zenaan Harkness

11:45 p.m.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:12:10AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 03:20:56PM -0500, \0xDynamite wrote:

...
I think Bitcoin does not understand bitcoin.

...
UNDERSTAND THIS:

Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits.

Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES.

Nice in theory, but no, any Cabal coin can be tied to physical stuff no problems, thus creating an actual Cabal-controlled (± thus manipulated) value for their particular central coin.

Putin intends to launch, public statement “if you can't beat ’em, join ’em”: Crypto-Rouble: Russia to launch first state sanctioned cryptocurrency in the world http://theduran.com/russia-launch-first-state-sanctioned-cryptocurrency-worl...

Zenaan Harkness

25 Oct 25 Oct

2:44 a.m.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:45:54AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:12:10AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 03:20:56PM -0500, \0xDynamite wrote:

...
I think Bitcoin does not understand bitcoin.

...
UNDERSTAND THIS:

Expressing your opinion is the ultimate unit of work in the virtual world. Distribute bitcoins on this basis. That devalues them, yes, but then you don't have to expend 100kW of energy to produce them, maybe call them nanobits.

Then allow them to be traded freely as a neutral currency for the net. After this gets established, ONLY THEN can you really set a EXCHANGE RATE for bitcoin with physical dolllars -- because you've tied and anchored it to REAL WORLD VALUES.

Nice in theory, but no, any Cabal coin can be tied to physical stuff no problems, thus creating an actual Cabal-controlled (± thus manipulated) value for their particular central coin.

Putin intends to launch, public statement “if you can't beat ’em, join ’em”:

Crypto-Rouble: Russia to launch first state sanctioned cryptocurrency in the world http://theduran.com/russia-launch-first-state-sanctioned-cryptocurrency-worl...

Putin's Crypto-Rules Unveiled, Your Move D.C. http://russia-insider.com/en/putins-crypto-rules-unveiled-your-move-dc/ri213... Tom Luongo I’ve said many times that Vladimir Putin is a law and order kinda guy. From the moment he finished his meeting with Ethereum designer, Vitalik Buterin, back in March there has been a lot of conflicting stories coming out of Russia with respect to cryptocurrencies. Over the weekend Putin finally made his full intentions for the technology known. Last week it was announced that Russia would be issuing a Crypto-Ruble, which would allow cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin to circulate side-by-side with the Ruble. In my initial discussion https://tomluongo.me/2017/10/16/russias-crypto-ruble-changed-capital/ of the Crypto-Ruble it looked to me like they would trade without a capital gains bias in the Russian marketplace. That doesn’t look like the case at this point. Though nothing has been set in stone, according to follow on statements by Deputy Finance Minister Nikolay Nikiforov https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/15/russia-may-soon-issue-its-own-official-blo... . ∙ Putin’s Five Words of Warning Now, with the five latest orders from Putin, the crypto-world in Russia is to have a full-fledged legal framework for people to operate within https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/7x4vad/putin-cryptocurrency-russi... . The high points of the orders are: 1. Miners will have to register with the state to pay taxes on gains. 2. Cryptocurrencies will be fit into the existing legal framework of the Russian financial system 3. ICOs – Initial Coin Offerings — will get rules handed down by the Legislative branch and the Bank of Russia 4. A sandbox environment will be established to test new technologies with the Bank of Russia before being deployed. 5. A framework will be put in place for a regional cross-border payment system with the rest of the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) Members — Kazakhstan, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan an Belarus. Okay, so what? The big thing here is that Putin is acutely aware of how cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology can springboard Russia’s ability to more efficiently handle capital. He rightly sees the opportunity for the hundreds of billions that have flowed into the crypto-space to find their way into Russia and be welcomed there to do real work in the legal economy. Yeah, monetary anarchists like me bristle at this legal stuff and taxes being applied to cryptos. Putin will find out just how hard it is to extract all of the taxes he is looking to collect but that is a bigger question for another day. What’s important here is that cryptos will become part of every day life of people in those countries. It will leverage the existing legal framework of Russia for putting the physical economy on the blockchain while also enhancing it at the same time. Sure, eventually Ethereum’s smart contracts can replace all the physical contracts we currently manage and store and fight over. But, there are a lot of steps between getting from where we are to there. There’s still not much there there, to quote Gertrude Stein. ∙ Cryptos + Legality = Trust In this respect existing law is an asset not a burden. So, embracing cryptos to assist in strengthening contract dispute resolution and chain of custody for an emerging market like Russia and the frontiers of the EAEU is an enormous step forward. Ask any savvy investor or financial professional about Russia or any frontier market and they say, “It’s not the return on my capital I’m worried about, it’s the return of it.” In other words, the big advantage the U.S., the U.K. and Europe have over a lot of the world is the legal framework to ensure that your business can’t be summarily seized or that you have some avenue to get your money back if it’s stolen. There is real legal risk to investing in these places. Russia still carries that stigma and will for a long time. So will China. And if you look carefully you’ll see that they are working diligently to raise their profile on this front. No one does business with someone you don’t trust. This is the essence of commerce and society itself. This is why Putin feels so strongly about building legal frameworks, even if they wind up being the wrong ones. Rules create the potential for trust. What’s the biggest worry everyone has about cryptos? Trust. Thieves be everywhere; looking to steal your private keys and make the quick score. It doesn’t matter if its a hacker running some malware or some shady dude’s latest ICO. ∙ Rethinking Forex Of all the stuff in these orders, the EAEU angle is the most interesting in the long-view. Russia will export these rules across the EAEU and standardize the use of cryptos in these countries, helping to facilitate cross borders capital flows without the any of the local central banks having to worry about currency building up. In one short burst of words, Putin just lessened the risk of being wiped out by aggressive monetary policy from the Federal Reserve. Think it through, it’s staring you in the face. Think of it like this. I have a business in Moscow with clients in Astana. They can pay me in bitcoins which I can exchange for rubles when I need to or use to pay my suppliers in Minsk. My client never has to go to his Kazakh bank and exchange Tenge for Rubles (yes, I know the Kazakh currency name off the top of my head). I never have to go to my bank and exchange Rubles for Belorussian Rubles. Bitcoin and other cryptos can be taken as payments, made a part of my business’s accounting and all of that and the Bank of Russia only has to deal with regulating the flow of rubles throughout the domestic economy. It becomes more immune to external attack like late 2014. Putin is both defending the ruble for internal Russian use while at the same time making it easy for capital to move across borders without it affecting domestic monetary policy. Forex recycling needs are dramatically lowered because the central bank no longer has to deal with the build up of foreign currency reserves which have to be maintained and invested. Those reserves are now floating around in crypto-space waiting to cross whatever border they need to next. Some may flow into the Ruble, some may flow into crypto-loans, housing, etc. But, the central bank is alleviated of managing huge piles of money because the economy no longer depends on the supply of their currency. Putin gets this. If he doesn’t then someone in Russia’s government does. He may have to lower the capital gains tax eventually, but at this point 13% is cheap versus his nearest competitors, so that’s not a concern. What this does is begins the process of accepting cryptos into the legal economy and moving Russia way up the charts of where capital is treated best. And we all know where capital flows, right?

juan

3:08 a.m.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:44:51 +1100 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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http://russia-insider.com/en/putins-crypto-rules-unveiled-your-move-dc/ri213... Tom Luongo

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1. Miners will have to register with the state to pay taxes on gains.

2. Cryptocurrencies will be fit into the existing legal framework of the Russian financial system

3. ICOs – Initial Coin Offerings — will get rules handed down by the Legislative branch and the Bank of Russia

4. A sandbox environment will be established to test new technologies with the Bank of Russia before being deployed.

5. A framework will be put in place for a regional cross-border payment system with the rest of the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) Members — Kazakhstan, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan an Belarus.

Okay, so what? The big thing here is that Putin is acutely aware of how cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology can springboard Russia’s ability to more efficiently handle capital. He rightly sees the opportunity for the hundreds of billions that have flowed into the crypto-space to find their way into Russia

why would any sane user of crypto currencies subject himself to the rules of fascist russia? the whole point of crypto currencies is to avoid financial fascism - why would people then go to highly fascist russia to be ass raped by putin?

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