On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl wrote:

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:54:34AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:

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In addition to not putting retarded spaces in links which does nothing useful, you can also learn to preserve threading on replies, which is actually useful. Top posting, bulk quoting, html, shortlink svcs... all bad. wtfppl.

Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm out of here.

Bye then :)

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:03:03AM -0500, Steve Kinney wrote:

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On 02/22/2017 03:51 AM, oshwm wrote:

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On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl wrote:

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On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:54:34AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:

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In addition to not putting retarded spaces in links which does nothing useful, you can also learn to preserve threading on replies, which is actually useful. Top posting, bulk quoting, html, shortlink svcs... all bad. wtfppl.

Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm out of here.

Bye then :)

LOL - don't let the door hit yez in the ass.

Do you enjoy the current state of the list? No fair filtering. Go reread it.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:03:03AM -0500, Steve Kinney wrote:

LOL - don't let the door hit yez in the ass.

:)

So let's see - Signing posts was not mentioned as a Good or Bad thing, but given what list this is, signing /has/ to be at least tolerated. That means hard wrapped text with broken hyperlinks, if they are at all long: Copy and paste twice to use the broken link, plus working around quote marks if the URL is in a reply. Where a looooong URL and a shortened version of same are both present, why/how is a shortlink a Bad Thing?

And, of course, the answer is no. Just to be sure, to be sure ..

Of course, if /only/ a shortlink is given, that presents issues with 3rd party tracking and potential abuses, i.e. spam, blinded direction to sites hosting exploits, etc.

Here's a comprehensive list posting how-to, which includes /some/ guidance that's not usually considered relevant per CPunks community standards:

https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Mailing_List_Etique tte

=or= https://tinyurl.com/jputln4

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:02:50PM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017, at 5:51 AM, oshwm wrote:

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On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl wrote:

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Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm out of here.

Bye then :)

Eugen,

oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive. He/she (I don't know whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it) was just informing you - in a bit ironic way, I admit - that CP is a list with absolutely NO moderation.

I really made a mistake back then. This list should have never been resurrected in the current form.

I don't know whether Riad is still the list owner and Greg is only managing it, or whether Greg also became the new list owner (never needed to ask it too, haha), but both are good persons, kind and very, very, very patient. I really appreciate a lot both, and hope

Tolerance and patience will kill even the best list.

nobody annoys them. :)

Take care, be patient and create filters, please.

This is not the way to keep a list healthy and sane. Pretty soon there will be zero traffic passing your filters. It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.

c.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:

I really made a mistake back then. This list should have never been resurrected in the current form.

Sorry, Eugen, the list didn't ressuct because it did never die, in fact. It changed a lot, and not to a better list, I admit, but never died for complete. It always was here. :)

Tolerance and patience will kill even the best list.

Yes, you're correct, but I do still believe that minimal intervention or no intervention are the best politics to most of the discussion lists. Yep, I was and I still am a moderator in some dozens of lists, and I'm doing it in the last decade (a bit more, in two lists). Being a moderator is *not* fun and takes a lot of my free time, but I know how it can be important to keep the things working well. That's the reason why, in the past, I accepted to help the moderation of some technical lists, even not being the best choice for it. The 'best choices' were too busy to help their pairs or simply didn't want the work, the responsibility and, of course, the complaints, kicks and bad words. :( You're always very polite, Eugen, but this isn't usually the rule and, sorry, I don't know you well enough to predict your possible reactions when you're upset or angry. That's the reason why I wanted to protect Riad and Greg a little bit, avoiding rude messages for both, sorry. They are *not* being lazy or negligent, they are just being anarchists. :)

This is not the way to keep a list healthy and sane. Pretty soon there will be zero traffic passing your filters.

Maybe, but it just the future can show us. For now, I still prefer to keep my hopes in a better future and, maybe, in a better list. :)

It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.

Stay, if you think you can change the list and make it better, not for the list itself, but for you, for other people. You have a good technical background and like to study. You can share your knowledge and will probably be contacted in public or private for others like you. There are lots of trolls, but there are good people here too, Eugen. A bit silent, I admit, but they are still here, I swear. Go, if you think it will be better for you. None of us can take this decision in your place, only you know your necessities and your limits. In this case, wish you good luck and success. Take care and be happy. In any case, you can choose read the messages in the list archive only, picking the titles, without receiving all the messy messages. If you need help, contact me in private. I'm always late with my personal messages (the professional ones are updated, I swear!), but I will answer soon or later. :)

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Razer wrote:

On 02/22/2017 10:04 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

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You're always very polite, Eugen,

So are Nazis when they're handing you a bar of soap and pointing you to the 'showers'.

You say you actually MODERATE lists?

ROTF! Which ones?

Sorry, I think they will be better with no trolls there. If I answer your question in public, some people here, that really seems to hate me, will try to disturb them, and it will be my guilty. I need to protect these lists because they trusted me enough to keep me on the moderation, Razer. And, sorry, I think it would be a waste of our time to give you the references of all the mailing and discussion lists. Most of them are in Portuguese, are private and are related to Law, governmental transparency, or hackerspaces.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:10:44 +0000 Eugen Leitl wrote:

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oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive. He/she (I don't know whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it) was just informing you - in a bit ironic way, I admit - that CP is a list with absolutely NO moderation.

I really made a mistake back then.

What mistake?

This list should have never been resurrected in the current form.

Lol. You should have gotten lost a loong time ago Eugen. But you can do it now anyway. Get.Lost. Or, alternatively, stop being a despicable piece of fascist shit and learn the A of the ABC of 'online' freedom. But given your current 'worldview' you fully belong in the pentagon's mailing list, aka the tor 'community' mailing list, not here.

On 02/22/2017 10:54 AM, Mirimir responds to Eugen Leitl:

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It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years. I hope that you're exaggerating;)

I'm just wondering if Eugen Leitl ever contributed anything useful, or he's just a lurker/whiner who hasn't contributed anything worthwhile himself. And I concur. There's an attempt to hijack the list by alt-right trolls that seemed to begin when the majority of people who actually post supported io during his vilification by institutional slander.

On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Mirimir wrote:

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On 02/22/2017 12:10 PM, Razer wrote:

On 02/22/2017 10:54 AM, Mirimir responds to Eugen Leitl:

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It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years. I hope that you're exaggerating;)

I'm just wondering if Eugen Leitl ever contributed anything useful, or he's just a lurker/whiner who hasn't contributed anything worthwhile himself.

I find lots of good stuff from him, but not since the list went to shit.

...

And I concur. There's an attempt to hijack the list by alt-right trolls that seemed to begin when the majority of people who actually post supported io during his vilification by institutional slander.

Yes, that was the timing. But it's puzzling. I mean, are the alt-right trolls part of the anti-io cabal? But Z*n and Alex were io supporters! Maybe they were double agents ;) Or maybe they aren't really either, but rather ED/*chan assholes, just in it for the lulz. Hard to say.

I'm reminded of Jack Barsky, the former Soviet spy who coded for years for IBM etc.[0,1] This from the Guardian piece is very interesting:

| In the 1980s, Barsky’s most interesting potential recruits were | radical rightwing ideologues; here, Soviet agents would pose as | activists from the radical right. “There was one individual I | reported on who I’m convinced would have fallen for that, because | he was so strongly rightwing,” he says. But Barsky doesn’t know if | any of them proved useful sources for the KGB; it was operational | procedure that the agent who did the profiling and the agent who | tried to recruit them were different people. He continued to send | the profiles; the rest remained a mystery.

So I wonder how much of the alt-right are actually Russian agents. That would be such a fucking coup! USA, pwned ;)

Interesting theory ;). Z*n used to post strictly russian propaganda bullshit, then slowly converted to his current (as of when i blocked him anyway) Trump alt-right anti-semitic fascist nazi persona. Maybe the FSB asked him to switch it up ;) I never thought Alex was smart enough to be his handler, in fact his responses were so moronic and transparent it seems he's stopped posting. Again, maybe at the FSB's direction ;) The wonderful world we live in.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 03:42:21PM -0500, John Newman wrote:

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On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Mirimir wrote:

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On 02/22/2017 12:10 PM, Razer wrote:

On 02/22/2017 10:54 AM, Mirimir responds to Eugen Leitl:

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It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years. I hope that you're exaggerating;)

I'm just wondering if Eugen Leitl ever contributed anything useful, or he's just a lurker/whiner who hasn't contributed anything worthwhile himself.

I find lots of good stuff from him, but not since the list went to shit.

...

And I concur. There's an attempt to hijack the list by alt-right trolls that seemed to begin when the majority of people who actually post supported io during his vilification by institutional slander.

Yes, that was the timing. But it's puzzling. I mean, are the alt-right trolls part of the anti-io cabal? But Z*n and Alex were io supporters! Maybe they were double agents ;) Or maybe they aren't really either, but rather ED/*chan assholes, just in it for the lulz. Hard to say.

I'm reminded of Jack Barsky, the former Soviet spy who coded for years for IBM etc.[0,1] This from the Guardian piece is very interesting:

| In the 1980s, Barsky’s most interesting potential recruits were | radical rightwing ideologues; here, Soviet agents would pose as | activists from the radical right. “There was one individual I | reported on who I’m convinced would have fallen for that, because | he was so strongly rightwing,” he says. But Barsky doesn’t know if | any of them proved useful sources for the KGB; it was operational | procedure that the agent who did the profiling and the agent who | tried to recruit them were different people. He continued to send | the profiles; the rest remained a mystery.

So I wonder how much of the alt-right are actually Russian agents. That would be such a fucking coup! USA, pwned ;)

Interesting theory ;). Z*n used to post strictly russian propaganda bullshit, then slowly converted to his current (as of when i blocked him anyway) Trump alt-right anti-semitic fascist nazi persona.

Maybe the FSB asked him to switch it up ;)

If I told you I ...

I never thought Alex was smart enough to be his handler, in fact his responses were so moronic and transparent it seems he's stopped posting. Again, maybe at the FSB's direction ;)

Our ways are far too intelectuall for a schooled lad like yourself :D

The wonderful world we live in.

Isn't it just.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:17 PM, oshwm wrote:

On 22 February 2017 17:02:50 GMT+00:00, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

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oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive. He/she (I don't know

No, i was being an arsehole :)

Arseholes are primarily used to excrete fecal matter, but also can be used in more interesting ways and give pleasure. Your choice. :)

...

whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it) was just

Is that important to you?

Absolutely not, you should be what makes you happy and comfortable. The problem exists only when I need to mention you or use Latin languages and need to make grammatical concordances.

No, Eugen threatened to leave the list if we didn't do as they wanted - as if they were doing us a great favour by blessing us with their 'presence'. Eugen's participation is for their own benefit, any benefit we get is a side effect and can be gained from multiple sources.

If he decides to write and share technical stuff, I swear I will feel blessed, sweetie. I like his posts and it would be amazing to read something more 'cypher' than 'punk' here. He still writes on other lists and his posts are interesting.

This is supposed to be Cypherpunks, not cypher-rather-nice-gentle-ppl and as such the noise is as important as the signal (imho of course).

I don't like too much noise, but it can be inspiring to some of us. Mozart wrote an amazing aria inspired by his mother-in-law's hysteric whining and it's pretty beautiful, impressive. The aria, not the whining, of course. :)

The calls for moderation have made me wonder if they are attempts by some 3rd party (grubbyments?) to take control of something they haven't been able to defeat and to subdue it to the point that participants walk away from something that no longer stands for anything worthwhile.

So many possibilities...

Although the irony of my response did give me cause to smile.

Oh, I know the feeling very well... ;)

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:38:16AM -0800, Razer wrote:

Oh and fuck your html phobia.

Fuck htmlphiles. <blink><marquee>Mail is text based.</marquee></blink>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/22/2017 11:52 AM, Razer wrote:

On 02/22/2017 08:22 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

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Oh and fuck your html phobia. Fuck htmlphiles. <blink><marquee>Mail is text

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:38:16AM -0800, Razer wrote: based.</marquee></blink>

Listmail was text-based back when <blink> <m> <lf> and <cr> were current and operational hypertext markup language

One might /hope/ that subscribers are not using mail readers that render HTML "mail" via a web browser with a HUGE attack surface. That's not necessarily just an MS Outlook thing: Once Upon A Time, Eudora loaded up Internet Explorer to display HTML messages in what appeared to be Eudora's own interface; I learned this when doing data recovery and forensics on an OS trashed by malware that arrived via that vector. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYrhj0AAoJEECU6c5XzmuqSk4IAMSFxcjqad6iEG55E2rH8nQO D1bKgzVrYkvoTeuf60R8UoqSNO3mMD0xDW8lfeov8ADlRDpTUNce4PdckflVY1/a 0i5t/m+2O1B3Upo2CRxO7rbZzyO7Y5oUv5xaBH6g/q2YO+IfNJsDA3AY8goHrWsT P/KW2kshSuEafP9iXY/h7FNyIymZ/v3VXWi98I4yKobSPjxTndmJWgRLo/drC8KG s5020b/bMgx+sbt3sPDrFjagOROhhADQnB17Dg/8Gr0Mp6CDa8W69uSEkiqqvNP2 V33M29kQymAOuCThAxxeenfVcxK5dBSYr+3b+29U46mWduSrYVWjU3iQqydkdpg= =kQNU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 02/22/2017 08:17 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

Also, please don't attach large files unless unavoidable. 1.5M pic is _many_ plain text emails (hi Razer).

That I can do. For expediency I often 'constrain' the image sizes instead of editing them down to size.