On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 4:16 AM, Mirimir wrote:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t3D4VVs7dbM/Uh7ydNAWrGI/AAAAAAAAO3w/XbiPTv5nG78/s...

That's hawt. Too bad the politik seize banned it and scared the artist off to asylum in France.

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 4:42 AM, Mirimir wrote:

You can find much worse about Obama, for example, on sites hosted in the US. Just sayin' ;)

Like how he's a muslim and did wtc along with skull and bones bilderberg etc to bring in the nwo... some shit like that.... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=new+world+order The US doesn't seize that, they database it, amplify, doctor, pimp and farm it out, happily skewer you later for lols, and kebab.

On 09/02/2016 08:37 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

Am I the only pervert that reads that thread where Razer and Juan are discussing passionately and thinks about hardcore sex and/or The Globe of Death? Ahahaha!!! ;D

Hey, Juan is just the top troll here. Even if he honestly doesn't realize it. And it's hard to resist arguing with skillful trolls.

-- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 08:54:48PM -0700, Razer wrote:

On 09/02/2016 08:23 PM, Mirimir wrote:

...

Hey, Juan is just the top troll here. Even if he honestly doesn't realize it. And it's hard to resist arguing with skillful trolls.

I'm not vying for the job...

Sometimes, it is said that the less said the better. You know, "silence is golden" and all that?

On 09/02/2016 10:19 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 09:23:58PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:

...

Hey, Juan is just the top troll here. Even if he honestly doesn't realize it. And it's hard to resist arguing with skillful trolls.

Two humans regularly publicly and skillfully (or otherwise) abusing each other with words, I guess can be named trolling. At least, that part of the "conversation". As entertaining as some might find it .. :)

No, that's just arguing. What distinguishes trolling is picking fights to disrupt a community. Juan, for example, is very clever, and skilled at rhetoric. He consistently dances away, turning the argument away from any possible resolution.

Is that "conversation" which sidetracks debate on political philosophy with straw men, fascist statism dressed up as 'collective self responsibility' and outright misunderstanding (to be generous) or misconstruing (to be less generous) of terms used (such as 'individual sovereignty) using false dichotomies and raising of irrelevancies, could this type of "communication" be considered a more significant, perhaps even more sinister, type of trolling?

Well, trolling does tend to generate counter trolling ;)

Just wondering...

;)

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 02:08:48AM -0300, juan wrote:

On Fri, 2 Sep 2016 22:41:35 -0600 Mirimir wrote:

...

No, that's just arguing. What distinguishes trolling is picking fights to disrupt a community.

What 'community' are you talking about? Your community of state parasites who get money from the department of war to promote fake anonimity networks?

The skillful part is using just enough colorful language combined with semi-personal attacks, to cause your 'opponents' to highlight their nationalist or other beliefs. In and of itself, that is very useful. It is good that folks are encouraged to not hold back in expressing who they are. There is a flip side though perhaps: once an individual has expressed vehemence on a particular view, and also demonstrated abundantly that they are unable to refrain from personal "defence", then the conversation has stagnated - often enough entertaining, yes, but no real progress is made, and when folks are expressing defensively, they are less likely to shift ground "cars ARE evil! We MUST have documentation PAPERS PLEASE to PROVE you are a COMPETENT driver! This is the ONLY WAY!!!" That's just self defeating emphatic-ness and more entrenchment of positions which are (perhaps?) not particularly useful to any of us in the medium to longer term? Damn funny to watch though ... :D But sadly, not useful. Not useful at all. ??

Or are you saying that this list is a 'community'? Dude, this is a mailing list.

In this modern world, folks find a sense of community all over the place. Juan, you're an intelligent man indeed. Humans have "basic needs" and one of those is acknowledgement from ones peers. Yes yes yes, rising above such petty trivialities as acknowledgement, fairness and "emotional fuzzy wuzzy hippy warmth" is a worthy goal, but evidently challenging for many who as we know too well, are so "schooled" in Western think, superficiality, defense of ego / self, etc etc etc.

...

Juan, for example, is very clever, and skilled at rhetoric. He consistently dances away, turning the argument away from any possible resolution.

Mirimir, I actually disagree with this. Juan is nothing if not consistent and persistent in his anarchism (and anti-state) position. Example: - Rayzer implicitly defended state issued driver licenses with the consequent implied state enforcement (implicitly Rayzer, don't get worked up on this please) - Juan, consequently, names Rayzer as fascist (in subtley more colourful language). - instead of handling the issue/ the "ball" of the argument in the conversation, Rayzer leaps into the name calling, and it goes back and forth and Goergi so elquently put it :) But guys: bloody hell! Is this at all useful! Juan, you've successfully highlighted Rayzer's emotional weak point - most Westerners (including me still in some ways, and me pretty heavily up until recent times!) are terminally insecure and fall instantly into self defence when "attackeed", missing the damn point! Is this useful (to keep repeating) ? ? ?

You are not a very skillful troll. Are you claiming with a straight face that I don't argue my points in a honest way?

That I actually avoid replying to the bullshit people like you say? Please.

This list would be almost dead if you were not here :) I'm still too "Western schooling pussy whipped" to challenge folks properly much of the time... Mirimir, without challenging one another, there can be no shift! Again: what's useful ?

On 09/02/2016 11:56 PM, Александр wrote:

This thread is about one of the ugliest smear campaigns ever against a Honest Man. Against Jake Appelbaum. On this thread people with Heart & Soul tried to defend this Man's Reputation. Man's Life.

Truth.

And what have you done from this thread? A? Your fucken childish games. bla bla bla & ha ha ha. and more bla bla bla & ha ha ha. and more bla bla bla & ha ha ha. *It's not funny, fuckers.* Go & make your childish pseudo punky ha-ha-ha on other thread!

Yeah. Funny, isn't it :(

Rhetoric question: Don't you have some kind of Respect to anything in this life? A? A_NY_THI_NG? *Nope.​​* we are "anarchists/punks/whatever". we do what we waaaaaant. This is how behave True Anarchists? True Punks? No. You are just clowns. Hollow people with no principles. bla bla bla & ha ha ha - that's what you are.

I'm with you on that.

Alex, in the past, you became my friend because of this ugly thread. The same with Juan. We sent lots of private messages to each other and was amazing a collective work to discover what was happening. I learned to love df, a tor-talk list member, because of this thread. He has a huge heart, very generous. This thread was horrible, a slander, a horrible)lie and now it is an anarchopunk celebration of friendship and sex. Why not? ;) Ah, better avoid the sex thing, because of all the false allegations, of course! Hahaha!!! ;D Because of the JA Group lies, we all discovered how "transparent" and "well structured" is The Tor Project. Congratulations! In the end, that stupid JA Group had some utility to us: - show us a horrible soap opera with bad actors and how the USA government is $ influencing $ the project, choosing leaders and paying its debts! :) -- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

On Sat, Sep 03, 2016 at 03:11:57AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:

Tor, et al, are well described now. Other oppurtunities exist for, or will be made by, those wishing to take them. That's what it's all about :)

Fork in JA's name :) I know: JACAPS, Tor with transparency :)