If you all want to create a new list just for your little friends, excluding everybody who thinks different, simply do it, instead making so much drama. Just it. -- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." On Sep 6, 2016 11:54 PM, "Cecilia Tanaka" wrote:

Everybody talks so much about women, but always are the men who make mischief, little games, intrigues and gossip off-list, aff... :-/

-- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." On Sep 6, 2016 11:42 PM, "Zenaan Harkness" wrote:

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Some of the back story, Alex and Juan agree with John Young that, especially list related discussion, should be on list.

So, conspiracy theories, self indulgent tripe, and all the rest for your gossiping indulgence..

Zenaan

----- Forwarded message from John Young ----- Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 09:29:24 -0400 From: John Young To: Zenaan Harkness Subject: Re: offlist - Re: individual responsibility - was Re: Nationalism vs Globalism

This discussion would be more effective on the list, not off-list, silvousplait.

As you may have read recently, offlist is just another troll tool.

At 08:57 AM 9/5/2016, you wrote:

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On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 02:24:23PM +0300, Александр wrote:

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2016-09-05 8:31 GMT+03:00 juan :

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I think that's their plan. So creating a new list and

letting

...

them do what they want with the cpunk list means we'd be following *their* plan. I don't plan to do that =P

YES! 100 times YES! But... the problem i wrote about on other letter still remains, my friends: (they ([personal gripes]...) *suck so much energy from us* once a month with their yellings about "offtopic"/"did you take LSD" shit.

I'm tired. This is not a way to do things.)

Alex, I ask you to take a peek in your memory at a few key moments in the last year as I hope the little transformations that are happening on the list and in the world might set your mind at ease:

- Rayzer has 'come out' - he now expresses bold confidence (notwithstanding he's a bit misguided in his personal mutual anger club with Juan, where he gets repeatedly defeated and sadly misses that fact. Funny but sad.

- In my early days on the list, I was personally targetted very effectively by someone with some significant training - I have no doubt they were/are an agent of some three letter agency - I ended up saying not much, and not replying to him, for a week at least;

I was impressed because he/they had successfully picked an emotional weak spot within me, and successfully used that to try to "hit" me publicly.

Once I processed it, I realised they were an agent provocateur in their intention, as expressed through their words, and they were well trained in that.

But doing so, they exposed themselves (at the very least to me).

- This year 50 CIA agents PUBLICLY petitioned the POTUS to declare a no-fly zone over Syria, actively attack Syria's president Assad, and thereby effectively start World War 3 against Russia!

The fact they believed they had to do this publicly, and DID do this publicly, tells us that their systems of control and influence are breaking down, and that to have any hope of further "success" with their evil ways, they have to act by exposing their evil for the world to see!

This is amazing, and an EXCELLENT development!

- Finally you must have seen my recent one-two round with either a head honcho type, or someone pretending to be - in that "a turning point? Brzezinski..." thread starting 2016-09-01, with "Lodewijk" (very unlikely his real name), then SDW pipes in with "Nice Zenaan, good responses to much of what you were responding to ... he must have been a troll, blah blah ..."

I believe I know who "Lodewijk" is, and SDW evidently works for him, since he tried to protect him with "he's just a troll" - yet the only reason I responded in such detail, was because of what I felt, what my instinct told me - "this guy is high up", he's real, he's not trolling, he's being honest.

Knowing "Lodewijk" is 'high up' in authority, and reading what he wrote, brought me to tears as I wrote that reply, because I know too well how they (the CIA guys and those similar to them) think and act - their questions were their actual point of view.

And so, to me, it was no surprise the SDW gave such a glowing report - I was speaking directly to them, in their own language, using their own terms and acknowledging (whilst disagreeing with) their own belief systems; so of course they would appreciate my analysis.

My only hope is that they might find within themselves a higher intention than merely power and control over other nations.

And of course Juan immediately named them (accurately) as "crazy fucks" :)

So, some folks are exposing themselves. Some like Mirimir are possibly making personal growth steps (very small is still above zero).

This is all a journey and "the list" (wherever it is and who ever "controls" it) is secondary - it merely provides a platform for the personal (and society) journeys that we make between ourselves.

Finally - Juan, you know this, and you've probably taken it on board already, but we "Westerners" or "wealthy Western schooled" folks (men in particular at this moment in history) are: - predominantly insecure, - spoiled with gadgets, food and comfort, - attached to the public image we think others have of ourselves, - often laden with societal guilt complex bullshit, - and generally unable to resist responding to personal attacks (yes yes Alex, I'm guilty as charged - I'll get there one day)

Point: these guys who attach to excuses for non-action, even for limiting discussion to their preferred topics, these are the kind of guys that predominate in the West. (I'm talking about the Rayzers and Mirimir types, not the SDW CIA types who have truly sold their souls.)

I.e., this is the soil we have available to us, to till.

Not shifting ground on all the important things is not only a great start, but essential.

But in conversation with such mentally weak and emotionally insecure people, men in particular, perhaps say to "idiots" (after having utterly demolished their arguments as you do so well) things like "repetition does not strengthen your position", and other such "softer" responses to blatant stupidity, and drop it there. This might help to lower the noise level, since emotionally insecure Western males are incapable of lowering their own noise levels without external support. So that's our job :)

Changes are happening, and I hold tentative hope for the future.

Kind regards always, thanks all for listening, Zen

----- End forwarded message -----