These total hypocrites allow anonymous Gold and Cash. Every single time that you "wait for regulation" you will continue to get fucked because you didn't stand up for and demand your rights and Crypto Freedom. Stop Getting Fucked, Stop being such fucking sheep, and start fucking them instead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWAwK2fHArc No Regulators !!! Dubai Prohibits Privacy Coins Like Monero Under New Crypto Rules https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/02/08/dubai-prohibits-privacy-coins-und... https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/02/07/dubai-mandates-licensing-for-cryp... https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/05/29/japans-ban-is-a-wake-up-call-to-... https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/11/15/privacy-enhancing-crypto-coins-co... https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/03/09/dubai-adopts-initial-crypto-law-e... https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/11/09/dubai-presses-for-crypto-companie... https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/iti467/perkins_coie_whitepaper_anti... https://www.perkinscoie.com/en/news-insights/anti-money-laundering-regulatio... https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-law-for-a-VPN-in-Dubai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates https://www.vara.ae/media/Virtual%20Assets%20and%20Related%20Activities%20Re... https://www.dawateislami.net/magazine/en/evils-of-society/false-accusation The issuance of anonymity-enhancing crypto are banned under the Emirate's new regulations for digital assets. In Dubai, the issuance of, and all activities related to, anonymity-enhancing cryptocurrencies such as monero (XMR) are prohibited under new laws published Tuesday. The jurisdiction in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) published its long-awaited crypto regulations, which sets licensing and authorization requirements for virtual asset companies and issuers looking to operate in Dubai. The new rules define anonymity-enhancing crypto as "a type of Virtual Asset which prevents the tracing of transactions or record of ownership through distributed public ledgers and for which the [Virtual Asset Service Provider] has no mitigating technologies or mechanisms to allow traceability or identification of ownership." Regulators in other jurisdictions like Japan have also taken steps to prohibit privacy-enhancing crypto. The European Union is also considering prohibiting tokens that hinder traceability. "Any obfuscation of fund flows poses a challenge to detecting illicit activities, so it is unsurprising that regulators react strongly to these kinds of asset classes and mechanisms,” said Angela Ang, senior policy adviser at blockchain intelligence firm TRM Labs. Crypto activities in Dubai are supervised by its Virtual Assets Regulatory Authority (VARA), set up last year. The emirate has been working to attract attract crypto and blockchain companies to set up shop in Dubai. Read more: Dubai Mandates Licensing for Crypto Companies as It Sets Out Regulatory Requirements Update (Feb. 8, 10:33 UTC): Adds comment from Angela Ang. Correction (Feb. 8, 16:08 UTC): Removes mentions of Zcash from headline and first paragraph. It is unclear whether Zcash is affected because the regulator made exceptions for mitigating features, which theoretically could include Zcash's "unshielding" option. 58 comments share save hide report all 58 comments sorted by: best Want to add to the discussion? Post a comment! [–]Iamtutut 87 points 12 hours ago Money laundering city state bans a privacy coin, what a joke. Won’t prevent anyone to use or trade Monero. permalink embed save report reply [–]Ornery_Maintenance_8 41 points 11 hours ago Breaking News: Totalitarian regime bans tool that provides financial freedom to it's users ​ ... I am so surprised xD permalink embed save report reply [–]SirArthurPT 19 points 11 hours ago Honestly, this is like passing a law against wind or rain... permalink embed save report reply [–]dEBRUYNE_1Moderator 13 points 11 hours ago The correction states: Correction (Feb. 8, 16:08 UTC): Removes mentions of Zcash from headline and first paragraph. It is unclear whether Zcash is affected because the regulator made exceptions for mitigating features, which theoretically could include Zcash's "unshielding" option. I don't see how that does not apply to Monero as well. Transactions can be verified with Monero's view key and key images. Additionally, see: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/iti467/perkins_coie_whitepaper_anti... Which concluded: We conclude that privacy coins protect legitimate individual and commercial privacy interests and that existing financial regulations sufficiently address the AML issues that privacy coins present. And: Not only do privacy coins provide public benefits that substantially outweigh their risks, existing AML regulations properly and sufficiently cover those risks, providing a proven framework for combatting money laundering and related crimes. permalink embed save report reply [–]tripler142 36 points 13 hours ago How can you enforce this? Buy bitcoin on a legit platform, go to one of the p2p "desks" on the 🧅, trade for monero. 🤷‍♂️ permalink embed save report reply [–]notsetvin 47 points 12 hours ago Get caught and get your hand sliced off is how they will enforce this probably. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tripler142 12 points 12 hours ago Lol, yeah they would do that.... permalink embed save parent report reply [–]EspHack 4 points 10 hours ago yeah, but also, hand slicing will scare business away survival of the fittest ensures we will end up with countries behaving more like hotels permalink embed save parent report reply [–]xmrjunkie223 2 points 9 hours ago You say that but I see these companies building and all encompassing approach to try and stomp this problems out. The cbdc trail in Nigeria and the fight against btc is really a fight against btc and xmr permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Elix_Exo1127 7 points 11 hours ago Like most laws this only hinders legitimate users, further pushing the narrative that Monero is just for criminals. Most users can't wrap their heads around anything more complex than ; "insert credit card here". permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 8 hours ago they can take it off the CEXs, so you can't offramp anymore and you're locked in the tiny ecosystem of DEX and illegal vendors permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tripler142 4 points 8 hours ago You can swap bitcoin to monero via p2p. As long as it's legal to buy bitcoin is easy to buy monero. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]belsaurn 1 point 8 hours ago You can currently do that, what happens when there is so few that are willing to accept Monero because they have no way of off ramping it? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]ScoobaMonsta 3 points 3 hours ago Because the people who really understand Monero don’t want to cash out of Monero! Monero is not a vehicle for fiat profits! Monero is for using!!! permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BitsAndBobs304 0 points 8 hours ago you can't cash out, you're limited to the very small ecosystem of illegal merchants online and DEXes permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tripler142 6 points 8 hours ago You do the reverse. P2p to bitcoin, back to legitimate exchange cash out... not complicated permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 7 hours ago you can't, because you'll get tainted btc that won't even be accepted on the CEX offramp or won't be able to show provenance or whatever else issue. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tripler142 1 point 7 hours ago They would have to ban any cash to crypto transaction that you and I can just do together. The bitcoin is from that guy I met a year ago. Traded cash for his crypto.There. Provenance. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BitsAndBobs304 3 points 7 hours ago With the taxman you're guilty until proven innocent. If the cash for coin guy gave you tainted or mixed coins they may get rejected. Also, not many people around the world trade cash for coin, and it's risky. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tripler142 1 point 7 hours ago Tainted coins makes no fucking sense. Then cancel crypto I'll stick with cash. All the trained drug dealer, ponzi scheme cash is flowing and they accept it everywhere. That's like tracking every serial number of every bill ever minted. If they do that I'm out. If I buy it and then sell for a profit I pay taxes. Doesn't matter where it came from permalink embed save parent report reply [–]ScoobaMonsta 1 point 3 hours ago Open your eyes permalink embed save parent report reply [–]No_Industry9653 0 points 5 hours ago I don't think Dubai has the influence to take it off centralized exchanges. It will take a lot to eliminate every no-verification-required swap style exchange. Strangling Monero is possible but there is a high bar, you're going to need comprehensive monitoring of other chains and extensive controls over getting in or out of the "legitimate", fully surveilled and doxxed crypto ecosystem. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 5 hours ago they will force the exchanges to make a local version just like they do for european countries and for usa, one without monero. monero is not on any major usa exchange except kraken, even binance has monero but not binance us. EU keeps piling more and more crypto regulation, im sure theyll come for monero too eventually permalink embed save parent report reply [–]No_Industry9653 0 points 4 hours ago You can just use a VPN, forcing a local version doesn't do anything unless the exchange requires additional verification. What might make some difference is if they were pressured to cut off non-verifying smaller exchanges to prevent them from using the larger exchange to resolve liquidity issues, but that's not a showstopper either. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 4 hours ago You can just use a VPN, forcing a local version doesn't do anything unless the exchange requires additional verification they require KYC, so ofc you cant just use a vpn permalink embed save parent report reply [–]No_Industry9653 0 points 4 hours ago The largest ones do, but so what? Who uses those when they just want to swap between Bitcoin and XMR for privacy reasons anyway? Like I was saying, the loss condition is total surveillance and control of the visible coins and exchanges such that you can't get in or out, anything short of that doesn't cut it. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 4 hours ago what kind of minor CEXs allow you to cash out btc for usd/eur into your bank without kyc? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]No_Industry9653 1 point 4 hours ago None, but the big ones don't prohibit depositing coins that came from other exchanges. They would need to do this for effectively shutting down Monero use. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]beaubeautastic 1 point 7 hours ago gotta be careful though. that btc got your name on it, ln might be fine though permalink embed save parent report reply [–]psiconautasmart 1 point 7 hours ago Others work better than BTC for that. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tripler142 0 points 7 hours ago Sure just an example, and most underground trading desks only use those 2 coins. Which I why I mention that in case people r into that sort of thing. I'm not. Informational purposes only permalink embed save parent report reply [–]FilmGunShops 8 points 11 hours ago Does this include gold and silver also known as privacy coins? permalink embed save report reply [–]ArticMineXMR Core Team 7 points 8 hours ago* Dubai also severely restricts, if not an outright bans VPNs. https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-law-for-a-VPN-in-Dubai So this is not that surprising. This is a country that does not have the independent judiciary or constitutional protections commonly taken for granted in the west. Edit 1: For the example legal arguments around preventing false accusations of criminal activity by blockchain surveillance companies, as a use case for Monero, which could be used in the EU, US etc., would likely not be possible in the UAE. Edit 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates Edit 3: Here is the official link to the actual regulations: https://www.vara.ae/media/Virtual%20Assets%20and%20Related%20Activities%20Re... The key point is the definition of: Anonymity-Enhanced Cryptocurrencies means a type of Virtual Asset which prevents the tracing of transactions or record of ownership through distributed public ledgers and for which the VASP has no mitigating technologies or mechanisms to allow traceability or identification of ownership. There is a very strong case that a view key plus key images or even a cryptographic proof that a transaction was sent indicating who sent a transaction would meet the requirement above. Edit 4: The legal system in the UAE is based upon Shar’i Law. Here is some information on false accusations Shar’i Law: https://www.dawateislami.net/magazine/en/evils-of-society/false-accusation It comes down to making the case that blockchain surveillance (BS) is Haraam-e-Qat’ee because of the high probability of false positives. So while the western approach may not work in the UAE there are alternatives. permalink embed save report reply [–]GoXMR 17 points 13 hours ago Nobody changed the world by not going against the status quo. permalink embed save report reply [–]lDanceLikeThis 4 points 13 hours ago is this like a Grammy award? permalink embed save report reply [–]VeThor_Power 4 points 6 hours ago what baffles me is that we are in 2023 and still there is not a reliable DeX to trade Monero. It is ridiculous that this is not a priority for the community. permalink embed save report reply [–]Aotrx 3 points 5 hours ago UAE is modern day slave owning state permalink embed save report reply [–]_The-Resistance 10 points 12 hours ago I think they are referring to Monero on exchanges or KYC Monero, this will not affect individual wallets, cause enforcing this on non custodial wallets is impossible permalink embed save report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 11 points 11 hours ago There is no KYC Monero, stop with that bullshit term. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]_The-Resistance 3 points 11 hours ago If you buy on an exchange they will know you have it, not how you use it or where you use it, but they will have your identity linked to a Monero withdraw, and is worst if you don't withdraw and pay directly from your exchange account, that is why Local Monero exist permalink embed save parent report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 11 points 11 hours ago Right, so you've KYC'd yourself. The coin itself isn't KYC'd. If I send you 1 XMR right now, can you tell whether it's a "KYC Monero" or a regular Monero? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]_The-Resistance 2 points 11 hours ago That is right, what I am trying to say is that if you use an exchange you are fucked up permalink embed save parent report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 1 point 8 hours ago so a KYC monerozanto (monero user) permalink embed save parent report reply [–]LinuxHeki 3 points 13 hours ago WTF permalink embed save report reply [–]shortwavesurfer2009 2 points 6 hours ago Better tell localmonero and DEXes they cant do business their... Oh wait... permalink embed save report reply [–]Solid-Win6743 1 point 10 hours ago Uhhh, so scared, it is written on paper that it's forbiden, so now I can't use it. uhhhhh /s permalink embed save report reply [–]Ur_mothers_keeper 1 point 8 hours ago Is monero explicitly mentioned in this law? Because does have "mechanisms to allow traceability and identification of ownership." You can share individual transactionkey images with authorities, as well as view keys. It's just, the government needs due process or whatever it's process is (a car battery and jumper cables attached to the nuts in some countries) to compel the owner to divulge the necessary information. Maybe a citizen of UAE or a resident can clear that up for us? permalink embed save report reply [–]HoboHaxor 1 point 7 hours ago Didn't happen (mainly going by the droves people here that say you _can't_ ban Monero, thus it never happened.) permalink embed save report reply [–]beaubeautastic 1 point 7 hours ago "Any obfuscation of fund flows poses a challenge to detecting illicit activities, so it is unsurprising that regulators react strongly to these kinds of asset classes and mechanisms,” said Angela Ang, senior policy adviser at blockchain intelligence firm TRM Labs. damn right and we aint gonna stop permalink embed save report reply [–]Few-Calligrapher3617 1 point 4 hours ago Hell naw we gotta find a way to sneak in such technology without alerting Dubai they need monero permalink embed save report reply [–]PhillyFan1977 1 point 3 hours ago Keep buying and using it. permalink embed save report reply [–]ScoobaMonsta 1 point 3 hours ago The article on Japan is from 2018. It doesn’t ban Monero. It just forces the exchanges to delist privacy coins. It’s not illegal to own or to use Monero. permalink embed save report reply [–]Vikebeer 1 point 43 minutes ago Alphabet shills are pushing it a place to move to as well. permalink embed save report reply [–]dEBRUYNE_1Moderator 80 points 2 years ago* In sum: We conclude that privacy coins protect legitimate individual and commercial privacy interests and that existing financial regulations sufficiently address the AML issues that privacy coins present. And: Not only do privacy coins provide public benefits that substantially outweigh their risks, existing AML regulations properly and sufficiently cover those risks, providing a proven framework for combatting money laundering and related crimes. permalink embed save report reply [–]CaptainPatent 34 points 2 years ago Glad the attorneys at Perkins Coie have their heads on straight. Hopefully regulators agree. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 22 points 2 years ago* Lawyers think whatever you pay them to think. I wouldn't take what they've written as a personally held opinion. Otherwise they would've written it without being commissioned by Tari Labs & Co (and it would've taken them less time, but, you know... they charge by the hour). Does anyone really think Perkins Coie would refuse to argue FOR the government (or any other institution) and AGAINST privacy-preserving cryptocurrencies, if they had approached them first? Because they believe in the technology? Please. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]CaptainPatent 14 points 2 years ago Lawyers think whatever you pay them to think. "No we don't" -The attorneys of Perkins Coie. This message has been paid for by a grant from the reddit antagonists fund permalink embed save parent report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 4 points 2 years ago 🤣 Exactly. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]SamsungGalaxyPlayerXMR Contributor[S] 23 points 2 years ago They still stand by their word. Perkins Coie is a well-known, prestigious law firm with their reputation on the line. They said everything in this whitepaper, not anyone else. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 9 points 2 years ago Not arguing that. I'm saying that I can't judge their moral character by their professional output. Does anyone really think Perkins Coie would refuse to argue FOR the government (or any other institution) and AGAINST privacy-preserving cryptocurrencies, if they had approached them first? Because they believe in the technology? What do you think about this part? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]SamsungGalaxyPlayerXMR Contributor[S] 5 points 2 years ago I simply don't understand how that question is relevant. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 12 points 2 years ago I was replying to someone who had said that the lawyers "have their head on straight". That implies a moral judgment. If they had refused to argue for the other side or had done the work pro bono, because they believe in the cause, I might be inclined to agree. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Epidemic_Fancy 7 points 2 years ago Thank you; (and) yes this is a moment we all need to seriously appreciate and remember. We are here in a place of important historical remembrance where we prove our freedom is justifiably interwoven with truth and privacy as well as anti criminal pursuits. Beautifully written and now “peer” reviewed. Thank you to all who have made our wonderful and abstract journey possible. Have a beautiful day. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]PhillyFan1977 2 points 2 years ago Exactly 100% agree. There is no need for any further regulations permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 18 points 2 years ago* Don't lose the forest for the trees. Did anyone even read the paper? Most of their suggestions, regarding Monero, if implemented by exchanges and payment service providers would mean a nightmare for everyone in this community except for those select few that are already well connected, have fancy lawyers and "optimal" legal structures. We as a community shouldn't condone or incentivize this type of discourse, even if it means financial "gains" in the short term. Most of their suggestions if put in practice would be a direct attack on Monero users, and yet here we are, celebrating. As /u/geonic_correctly pointed out this paper feels like a missed opportunity more than anything else. We as a community need to remain vigilant and not fall for the same traps that have plagued some other projects in this space, code can change, communities consensus can change, be mindful of playing the state apparatus game and hoping that somehow you'll "win" by playing by their rules. You'll lose, badly. Even if some people would be financially better off in the short term. That was never Monero's goal, keep that in mind. permalink embed save report reply [–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 12 points 2 years ago playing the state apparatus game and hoping that somehow you'll "win" by playing by their rules. You'll lose, badly. Get a moral gold medal. I'm happy to see there are still people in this community who refuse this kind of regulatory bullshit. I hate to see many acting like Monero will survive only if it will fit state regulations. Too many seem to see Monero as simply a product that needs to fit as many regulations as possible to become mainstream. I don't care of Monero becoming mainstream and worth 1 bajillion a coin. People who actually need Monero will never go through KYC or other regulatory bullshit. They will use an half-broken smartphone found in the streets of a city in Rwanda to send money to the rebels who are trying to overthrow the dictatorship. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tempMonero123 5 points 2 years ago Monero can still be used outside of regulatory requirements, just like physical cash can. If Monero was made only to fit in such requirements (become neutered to the point it's basically Bitcoin), then I would have a problem with it. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Alex058 3 points 2 years ago* How did this whitepaper change the community from cypherpunk to regulatory bootlickers? The tech hasnt changed, the people neither: chill man! EDIT: ErCiccione pointed out to me he didnt write anything like this, I must have read it elsewhere. Anyhow, my apologies to him EDIT2: I see I mixed up two replies, but that doesnt change the fact I was wrong 😅 permalink embed save parent report reply [–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 3 points 2 years ago How did this whitepaper change the community from cypherpunk to regulatory bootlickers? I never said any of that. You should probably reread my comments. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Alex058 4 points 2 years ago Hi, I would have sworn I had read that exact words in one of your replies. But cant find it now, so I must have been mistaking, hence my well meant apalogies! I will edit my reply immediately permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 4 points 2 years ago Also it's worth keeping in mind that loose community agreements shift, new people join the community, etc BTC community was mostly cypherpunk at some point, it's far from it these days, sometimes those things change fast. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Alex058 3 points 2 years ago Agreed. Good thing is, if this community would change for the bad, a new one would arise permalink embed save parent report reply [–]rbrunner7XMR Contributor 3 points 2 years ago They will use an half-broken smartphone found in the streets of a city in Rwanda to send money to the rebels who are trying to overthrow the dictatorship. Woah, you lean pretty far out of the window here :) But yeah, has something. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 6 points 2 years ago I could have made a softer example about rural asian communities receiving fundings for their farm in XMR directly to their phone from a random guy in australia, but the rwanda rebels thing was a more powerful example :P permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 1 point 2 years ago I'm happy to see there are still people in this community who refuse this kind of regulatory bullshit. I hate to see many acting like Monero will survive only if it will fit state regulations. Too many seem to see Monero as simply a product that needs to fit as many regulations as possible to become mainstream. I don't care of Monero becoming mainstream and worth 1 bajillion a coin. I think we can close this thread now :) permalink embed save parent report reply [–]MoneroArbo 4 points 2 years ago Do you have any specific concerns? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 10 points 2 years ago* "To target and lessen the anonymity-related risks of privacy coins, appropriate enhanced due diligence would likely include measures to prove a customer’s source of funds, place of residence, and profession. Other measures may include a requirement that customers describe in detail their purpose for transacting privacy coins (e.g., the holder is a cryptocurrency trader or operates a business in which cryptocurrency is accepted as payment), along with anticipated privacy coin transaction volumes and anticipated privacy coin transaction counterparties." "Although it would be a blunter instrument for risk mitigation than per-customer analysis, a VASP could reasonably and effectively lessen the overall AML risk of a privacy coin offering by categorically prohibiting customers who are in higher risk categories or geographies from accessing the privacy coin offering" " a VASP could require supplemental information from a customer before processing a privacy coin transaction (e.g., details regarding the purpose of a transaction, the name and address of the recipient, and contact information for the recipient)." "Users can reveal an XMR transaction’s details that are specific to their account via key-based functionality that is built into the Monero protocol. Specific view keys can be shared with any third party to grant insight into the account associated with the view keys. This enables users and VASPs to disclose certain transaction details associated with a given account to a third party without publicly disclosing that user’s transactional information. In addition, VASPs can require up-front disclosures as part of their registration process and on an ongoing basis to meet their obligations." Imagine if all (or a combination of the above) becomes the standard of the industry, is this (as a community) what we are really rooting/lobbying for? permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tododiamesmacoisa 4 points 2 years ago Imagine if all (or a combination of the above) becomes the standard of the industry, is this (as a community) what we are really rooting/lobbying for? Eh, maybe. I mean, even if that becomes the industry standard... This community would develop alternatives, as some of them already exist. The goal of the paper was to prove that Monero can be completely aligned with KYC/AML practices and there's no need to ban it, which would be a lot, really a lot worse than just forcing KYC in the standard exchanges. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 2 points 2 years ago "Standard" exchanges that want to list Monero already do without (almost) none of the above measures. Coinbase doesn't list Monero because they don't want to, period. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tododiamesmacoisa 6 points 2 years ago Cool. So I don't get your point. This whole whitepaper is literally just ammunition for when people or other entities come around spewing bullshit that they need to ban monero or something like that because it's impossible to apply the existing regulations to it. I prefer to have this ammunition than to not have it. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 2 points 2 years ago That the suggestions they make, if they were to become standard across the industry, would be a disaster for monero users. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]Alex058 2 points 2 years ago I disagree. This is allready standard practice with normal banks/fiat, as it is with buying crypto from VASPS’s with a bit higher volumes. I’d rather have XMR then USD, being sure there’s no unlimited printing AND I can buy stuff without companies knowing what and where I buy my groceries permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 3 points 2 years ago Great that normal banks/fiat is the standard we hold ourselves up to these days. Regarding the rest, if your grocery store were to be using a payment processor they would potentially fall under some of this regulations, were they to follow some of this recommendations it's not necessarily true that "companies wouldn't know where you buy your groceries". Also, this paper clearly incentivizes entities to discriminate against "privacy coin" (blergh!) users to a degree of scrutiny that "other coin" users are not subject. That in of itself is concerning, it could also be used by current market participants (that deal with monero with no issues) to change their compliance policies to incorporate some of these suggestions. All in all, it's nothing to write home about, let alone celebrate. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]tempMonero123 1 point 2 years ago Yes, those are concerns, and I'd rather not have those requirements. However it doesn't stop Monero from being a useful tool. This would prevent people from not 'being their own bank'. People can still use Monero to transact and secure their wealth and pay for things without going through a bank or other financial institution. I don't like discrimination, and this could prevent someone like a cam performer from getting a crypto bank account (even though their services are legal, places like PayPal already refuse to have them as customers). This hypothetical cam performer may not be able to get a traditional mortgage, but they could still rent-to-own. I'm sure other products/services would pop up in the future that would allow for people to more safely 'be their own bank'. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]jesuispero 8 points 2 years ago* On another note, another high-level concern I have is that we as a community will change our culture and start focusing on these "compliance questions" too much, foregoing possible protocol improvements/research because that would potentially mean "delisting". Being not compliant with policies as draconian as the FAFT or AMLD5, would in other periods in this community, not that long ago, been seen as a badge of honor. Or that we'll become gradually more like the Bitcoin community, more and more focused on "number go up", "institutional investors" and similar crap like that. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 6 points 2 years ago This is probably my biggest fear. Luckily that's not the case yet, but i cannot hide that seeing so many in the community being so focused about compliance (not talking about the average guy who only wants to see numbers going up, talking about actual contributors) worries me. Luckily i don't see key developers like moneromooo becoming regulatory bootlickers, so as long as things stay as they are, we are good. On a personal note, i wouldn't really want to be part of a project focused on pleasing institutions and regulations. That's not the reason i'm here. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 31 points 2 years ago While I applaud the effort, it's disappointing that they decided to amplify the "privacy coin" meme. "Privacy-preserving" or "privacy-enabling cryptocurrencies" should've been used throughout. I would've also liked to see a section on "privacy-eroding cryptocurrencies", starting with Bitcoin, and how that affects the individual user. This was an opportunity to change the narrative around this technology and to underline how Bitcoin's radical transparency is the niche, not Monero's privacy-preserving technology. To explain to regulators and others that Bitcoin is unlike *any product* currently available in the financial world. Does any bank offer a transparent account that anyone can peer into? Why not? The paper also misses some of the more important benefits of fungible money. Guilt by association is a thing with Bitcoin. You need to not only be sure of the person you receive your Bitcoin from, but also be careful who you spend it with, since that person might commit a crime and you are the source of his funds. Bitcoin erodes freedoms on so many levels it is preposterous. permalink embed save report reply [+][deleted] 2 years ago* (1 child) [–]pcre 5 points 2 years ago Can I violate the money laundering law as a private person? Suppose I sell Monero on localmonero.co for cash. I cannot check whether the money comes from illegal transactions. I have to assume the innocence of the other person. The money laundering law turns this around. You have to prove your innocence. permalink embed save report reply [–]HoboHaxor 9 points 2 years ago Does it really matter? Cryptologists, mathematicians, scholars, security experts, all have testified before congress/senate stating the backdooring crypto just won't work. Yet the keep writing new bills and will until the anti encryption passes. permalink embed save report reply [–]Kukri4321 8 points 2 years ago Woo! Been waiting for this! permalink embed save report reply [–]Tallest-man 10 points 2 years ago At long last!! Thanks Perkins! permalink embed save report reply [–]johnfoss68 7 points 2 years ago Great work, and well done to all those involved in making it happen. permalink embed save report reply [–][deleted] 7 points 2 years ago Thank you team Tari permalink embed save report reply [–]endogenicXMR Contributor 5 points 2 years ago Great effort on this. I did notice the following references to auditing Monero exist in the paper... Specific view keys can be shared with any third party to grant insight into the account associated with the view keys. ... The confidential transactions feature is a cryptographic tool that allows for verification that no additional XMR has been created or destroyed as part of a given transaction, without revealing the exact transaction amount. 42 ... Unlike the Bitcoin protocol, Monero users have two sets of private keys and public keys (four keys total). The pair of public keys make up the wallet address of a Monero user, whereas the two private keys (the view key and spend key) allow an individual to determine whether an output is addressed to them (view key) and enables the individual to send XMR and determine whether it has been spent (spend key).43 To verify transfers of XMR, a third-party observer must know that the XMR is owned by the individual using it. To enable this verification, the individual using the XMR signs the previously received XMR with the one-time address used, thereby proving that the individual knows the private keys and therefore rightfully controls the XMR that the individual is using. The private view key may be given to others to grant transparency into certain details of particular transactions associated with the address or addresses. Monero also contains an optional text field called “tx_extra” that can store arbitrary data in encrypted format. While this text field can be used for a variety of compliance purposes, this use has not been widely recommended by researchers and developers.44 … which are great! But I personally would like to have seen a small section to show (via the Monero command-line system or a symbolic representation) some techniques, specific tools, and processes of exactly how legally liable entities or operators can, in PC's confidence, sufficiently comply, maybe with some basic examples for different entity types. How awesome that PC did this! permalink embed save report reply [–]fluffyponyzaXMR Core Team 9 points 2 years ago How awesome that PC did this! Just want to point out that they didn't do this of their own volition. Tari Labs commissioned it, and paid for it (with the help of some others). permalink embed save parent report reply [–]endogenicXMR Contributor 3 points 2 years ago Yes, I remember working on an original high level technical description of how Monero works during the MRL workshop which MyMonero and Tari sponsored and Naveen and I put on. We called it a one-sheet and it was requested for this 'regulatory writeup' work. Its on the MRL workshop minutes from back then, sarang, surae and I wrote it in Nashville, but was years before we saw what we became of it so I'm glad to see the post.. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]unjack 4 points 2 years ago I still don't see how it helps. permalink embed save report reply [–]Febos 20 points 2 years ago* It will help random new guy that heard of Monero and then heard FUD how not complaint Monero is with regulations and how will be delisted from all exchanges. It will help small exchanges or small merchants or any service that plan to use or use Monero and was uncertain because of the FUD. Now will normally continue doing what they were doing or start doing it with Monero. And they will point to the paper when people will ask about it. It will help you and me to explain to people, that FUD how Monero dont have future and how only surveillance coins will exist, is false. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]aaj094 8 points 2 years ago Well, for a while it has been a view that exchanges are hesitant to list monero because of regulatory concerns. This paper seems to allay fears that privacy coins are inherently incompatible with current regulatory regimes. permalink embed save parent report reply [–]TrasherDK 3 points 2 years ago Wrong reply. permalink embed save parent report reply [+][deleted] 2 years ago* (3 children) [+][deleted] 2 years ago (1 child) [–]TrasherDK 2 points 2 years ago Cool. Been waiting for this one forever. permalink embed save report reply