Re: [from offlist] Re: Stormfap go bye-bye now...

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 10:13:14AM -0700, Razer wrote:

Because I'd prefer to keep convos started on-list, onlist. On 08/28/2017 08:00 PM, Steven Schear wrote:

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I am unconvinced this solution betters all our freedoms.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending *scoundrels*. For it is against *scoundrels* that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." H.L. Mencken

Fixing the "scoundrel problem" is an intractable problem I have ZERO time for.

Fair enough, no one's asking you to fix that problem. Some might say it can't be fixed, others might say there's no point trying to fix such an intractable problem - but in any case let's leave that for a separate thread.

Allowing an ideology to be promulgated negating human existence

Your argument is factless - if even some particular individual has "promulgated negating human existence", and has so promulgated in a way which is criminal (e.g. incitement to murder another individual for example) then perhaps there would be grounds for you to report that particular individual to your local State authorities. But not only do such possible facts probably not exist in all but the rarest of situations, you "Razer" continue, repeatedly, to fail to present even ONE SINGLE fact in support of your position - other than your usual hand waving exercises such as "those nasty White Supremacists keep promulgating negating human existence". That's a f*king strawman and you know it! Put up a fact or you're an ongoing fraud and a bully. As an interesting aside "Razer", various of the sentences you have written to this list quite possibly WOULD be interpreted as incitement to violence/murder, by your local State authorities. Your hypocrisy on this point alone evidence that you "Razer" a real bully, and at the very least, really aggressive in your communication (and indeed offensive). Perhaps you want to take a look at the finger you keep pointing outwards...

due to some unalterable trait is simply suicide for a society, and as can be seen from history, any society nearby.

Put up a fact, Razer.

Ps. I take issues with Snopes interpolation of the famous AH quote about 'destroying the nucleus' where Hitler also said the Nazi rise was assisted by the violent counter-elements. http://www.snopes.com/adolf-hitler-smashing-the-nucleus/

Come on, at least put the quote in so we can read it: In January 2017, white nationalist Richard Spencer was punched in the face, igniting a debate about when it is acceptable to punch someone who espouses beliefs widely regarded as reprehensible (generally taking the form of the question, “Is it ever acceptable to punch a Nazi?”). In the ensuing discussion, the following popular quote, often attributed to Adolf Hitler, reappeared and recirculated: "Only one thing could have stopped our movement – if our adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement." Attributed to Adolf Hitler. Daniel Guérin documented this quote in his 1939 book Fascism and Big Business. https://books.google.com/books?id=vUNYAAAAMAAJ&dq=fascism+and+big+business+daniel+guerin&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=nucleus However, Guérin may have paraphrased Hitler’s actual words as the quote was presented alongside another utterance from a National Socialist leader, Joseph Goebbels, and not with the full text of the speech itself: "If in the beginning, when the Hitler bands were still weak, the workers’ parties had answered them blow for blow, there is no doubt their development would have been hampered. On this point we have the testimony of the National Socialist leaders themselves. Hitler confessed in retrospect: Only one thing could have broken our movement – if the adversary had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed, with the most extreme brutality, the nucleus of our new movement.” And goebbels: “If the enemy had known how weak we were, it would probably have reduced us to jelly…. It would have crushed in blood the very beginning of our work.”" Guérin cited a speech Hitler delivered at the Nuremberg Congress on 3 September 1933. A 1934 book containing Hitler’s speeches, titled “Die Reden Hitlers am Reichsparteitag 1933,” http://archive.org/stream/Die-Reden-Hitlers-am-Reichsparteitag-1933/DieReden... contained a German version of this speech. A translation from the web site Zuriz confirmed that the quote was largely accurate, although it was missing some vital context: "“And so, I established in 1919 a programme and tendency that was a conscious slap in the face of the democratic-pacifist world (…) [We knew] it might take five or ten or twenty years, yet gradually an authoritarian state arose within the democratic state, and a nucleus of fanatical devotion and ruthless determination formed in a wretched world that lacked basic convictions. Only one danger could have jeopardised this development – if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas, and not offered any resistance. Or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement. Neither was done. The times were such that our adversaries were no longer capable of accomplishing our annihilation, nor did they have the nerve. Arguably, they furthermore lacked the understanding to assume a wholly appropriate attitude. Instead, they began to tyrannise our young movement by bourgeois means, and, by doing so, they assisted the process of natural selection in a very fortunate manner. From there on, it was only a question of time until the leadership of the nation would fall to our hardened human material. (…) The more our adversaries believe they can obstruct our development by employing a degree of terror that is characteristic of their nature, the more they encourage it. Nietzsche said that a blow which does not kill a strong man only makes him stronger, and his words are confirmed a thousand times. Every blow strengthens our defiance, every persecution reinforces our single-minded determination, and the elements that do fall are good riddance to the movement.”" So the quote is accurate but incomplete. While Hitler said that the rise of the Nazi party could have been stopped by “smashing the nucleus” on day one, he also noted that resistance from the opposition helped strengthen his movement. So there you have it, a page which seems reasonably accurate.

The way to resolve that is for Non-violent Anti-fascist elements to BUTT THE FUCK OUT and practice TACTIC-TOLERANCE.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo! Now Rzer, instead of just fighting words back and forth, a sane approach would be where you now demonstrate enough insight to be able list two or three reasons why you "could be" wrong, or at least why your position "could possibly fail". If you do so, then we would be having a conversation, rather than just battling against one another's propaganda - which of course gets rather tiring. And "no, it's long past conversation, we've only got to smash the nucleus Right Now!" is not an appropriate response if you consider any utility to actually exploring the (very real) issues at stake. It's your call of course...

If the media wants to talk to them about it, JUST TELL THE MEDIA YOU ARE THERE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING, and desist from ANY discussion of other organizations OR THEIR TACTICS.

There is a large Non-violent Anti-fascist element in the US that did NOT really exist to any degree in Germany (White Rose, etc, were microscopic), and UNLESS tactic tolerance is practiced by all US antifascist elements, no matter which side ascends, they will lose to Fascism.

That's not a rational position. First it's a fact-less assertion. SEcond it fails to address -any- of the counter arguments. And see above where I'm now asking you to actually raise a counter argument or three (not straw men - the actual counter arguments from your alleged "opponents"), to demonstrate that you're ACTUALLY cognizing the other side (and not merely in emotional reaction). Zenaan

Rr

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Warrant Canary creator

On Aug 28, 2017 7:51 PM, "Razer" mailto:g2s@riseup.net> wrote:

Oldest white supremacist site shut down after complaint

By JAY REEVES Associated Press

August 28, 2017 12:03 PM

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. - The founder of the internet's oldest white supremacist site said he was trying to get back online Monday after a company revoked its domain name following complaints that it promotes hatred and is linked to dozens of murders.

Don Black, a former Ku Klux Klan leader who has operated stormfront.org http://stormfront.org since 1995, said he didn't receive any warning before Network Solutions blocked the use of the stormfront.org http://stormfront.org name on Friday.

Stormfront.org had more than 300,000 registered users, Black said, with traffic increasing since a violent white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Popular with the KKK and neo-Nazi groups, the site included forums where users sometimes promoted white power events.

"I'm talking to my lawyers, and that's about all I can do right now," Black, of West Palm Beach, Florida, said in a telephone interview. "I can switch to another domain, but it might wind up the same way."

Another major white supremacist website, The Daily Stormer, was previously shut down by the web-hosting company Go Daddy and then Google after the violence in Charlottesville.

The Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law said the stormfront.org http://stormfront.org shutdown followed complaints it filed with Network Solutions alleging the site promotes not only hate speech, but deadly violence.

A spokesman for Network Solutions didn't immediately return an email seeking comment.

Users of Black's website have been implicated in more than 100 killings, according to the complaint, including 77 people slain by neo-Nazi Anders Breivik at a camp in Norway in 2011.

"Especially in the wake of tragic events in Charlottesville and the spike in hate crimes across the country, Stormfront crossed the line of permissible speech and incited and promoted violence," said a statement by Kristen Clarke, executive director of the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law.

Black, speaking about the shutdown during an online radio show Monday, said his site had rules against promoting violence or any crime.

Black was a state KKK leader under former Klan Imperial Wizard David Duke, who appeared on the radio show following Black and expressed his "full support" for Black and the website.

"He was the first major site defending the rights of white people," said Duke.

Black has been involved in the white supremacy movement since the 1970s and was convicted in 1981 for his role in a right-wing plot to overthrow the government of Caribbean island nation of Dominica.

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