May 2023 - cypherpunks@lists.ogf.org

Cryptocurrency: Vivek Ramaswamy Trending 1st Crypto Pres Candidate, Not DeSantis, re CBDC
by grarpamp 16 May '23

16 May '23

DeSantis is trying to bigstage Ramaswamy out of his anti-CBDC position. However the crypto world knows Vivek has been making rounds and sharing affinities in the pro crypto space since at least last year. Vivek's appearances on the big crypto podcasts are easily searchable. “To me, the American dream means you believe in merit. That you get ahead in this country not on the color of your skin, but on the content of your character and your contributions. It means you believe the people who we elect to run the government are the ones who actually run the government, not a federal bureaucracy. [...] It means that the best ideas win instead of getting censored. It means you don't have to choose between speaking your mind freely and putting food on the dinner table. It means you think these ideals form the backbone of the greatest nation on earth. -- Vivek Ramaswamy (February 2023)" Mainstream clip... https://video.foxnews.com/v/6315447241112/

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Cryptocurrency: Says FUCK YOU To 1984 Euro Crypto ID Law
by grarpamp 16 May '23

16 May '23

1984: EU passes law requiring ID for all crypto transactions. [–]IramDei_ 183 points184 points185 points 11 hours ago (8 children) “prevent the misuse of crypto industry for the purposes of money laundering and financing of terrorism” Misuse? isnot thats the only use of crypto? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]SnarkConfidant 53 points54 points55 points 11 hours ago (6 children) "It's all misuse?" :O "Always has been" :| permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]broodkiller 17 points18 points19 points 7 hours ago (0 children) 🌎🧑‍🚀🔫🧑‍🚀 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [+]purekillforce1 comment score below threshold-44 points-43 points-42 points 9 hours ago (4 children) Good job other currencies can't be used to launder or finance terrorism! The criminal empire will crumble without their precious cyber money muahaha permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]powercow 27 points28 points29 points 8 hours ago (2 children) OH sure sure sure. Thats why we have regulations for suspicious activity reports and know your customer laws for stock exchanges. ALso this might blow your fucking mind. You can kill people with a knife. But its a lot easier with an AR-15. Your comment is like saying "OMG you want to regulate AR-15s, when people can kill each other with a knife" YEAH, because one is more easy to do than the other. ITs not complicated. SO You need more of a debate than "OMG YOU CAN LAUNDER IN FIAT TOO!!!" I can launder in toasters if i want, its just not very convenient or easy. Pointing this fact out is fairly meaningless for the conversation. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [+]purekillforce1 comment score below threshold-21 points-20 points-19 points 7 hours ago (1 child) Seems pretty easy with cash laws for the stock exchange? They work well... I'm not saying it can't be regulated and shouldn't be, but by design you can avoid it. You can keep your own node and wallet and not have to give identification to own and access your own wallet. Maybe for criminal activity, maybe for privacy, maybe for security. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]PresidentoftheSun 13 points14 points15 points 7 hours ago (0 children) Look, you can disconnect yourself from the rest of society however you want, but most laws exist to control potential abuses carried out on people when they try to interact with other people. Existing financial regulations surrounding fraud are being actively danced around using crypto. This is why more regulation targeting crypto fraud specifically are coming. This isn't complicated to understand. Also, crypto is being treated different to how money is treated because nobody uses it as money. If you think that's a stupid thing to say, then you don't understand the function of money. Crypto is not money. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]nachof 5 points6 points7 points 6 hours ago (0 children) You known, you say that like it's obvious that banning crypto would not do anything to reduce those issues, but in reality, we know that this is going to help. We know this because since crypto started being everywhere, ransomware exploded everywhere. So yes, crypto does help criminals. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]rich-evans 12 points13 points14 points 8 hours ago (0 children) “We are trying to prevent the misuse of bombs for the purpose of blowing shit up” permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]LaughingAddict 45 points46 points47 points 10 hours ago (6 children) Just in: all crypto pulls out of EU. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Y_Sam 35 points36 points37 points 9 hours ago (3 children) Oooh nooo what will become of us 🙁🙁🙁 How will I pay for my groceries ? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]hiuslenkkimakkara 16 points17 points18 points 7 hours ago (0 children) This filthy fiat Euro that can instantly settle my sauerkraut purchases, nooo permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]foxsheepgato 4 points5 points6 points 6 hours ago (1 child) it's over for us eurobros 😞 tyranny won ✊😥 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Possible-8440 3 points4 points5 points 1 hour ago (0 children) "This is totalitarian, Europe will never be a developed country" permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Noisebug 6 points7 points8 points 7 hours ago (1 child) More like the EU pulls out of crypto. 😏 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Possible-8440 1 point2 points3 points 1 hour ago (0 children) 😏👌 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]SemiCurrentGuy 53 points54 points55 points 10 hours ago (12 children) Seeing the loudest idiots say either "good luck with enforcement" or "how would this work with defi" shows truly how ignorant the typical cryptobro is right now. For point 1, they are basically saying the quiet part out loud and willing to risk their entire lifesavings as well as that which belongs to any potential greater fools they can attract, even if it means they are breaking the law - as long as they do not actually get caught. As for the second point, while true it would be quite hard to enforce specific ID or KYC-related rules when it comes to that aspect of crypto, it doesn't matter at all because those same rules would still block all the entrances and all exists unless you actually comply. These morons will be trading their magic internet money with each other and starving to death on the way to homelessness if they continue to avoid reality. The doors are closing and my popcorn stash is not ready yet. When harvest? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]PresidentoftheSun 19 points20 points21 points 7 hours ago (9 children) Government: Passes law that makes it illegal to process blockchain traffic. ISP Providers: "What you mean free up some bandwidth by shutting down anything with protocols matching blockchain functionality? Hell yeah brother." The only people left using crypto will be turbo nerds whose networks don't interact with the internet at large, and everyone in it as a get rich quick machine gets left holding keys to wallets they can't access anymore because their ISP completely blocks them out. Now I think this would be a terrible overreach by the government of course, but it'd be funny in a cosmic sort of way. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Row-6131 1 point2 points3 points 6 hours ago (6 children) This might be hard to enforce because the ports could be changed faster than ISPs can humanly react. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]grauenwolfAgent of Poe 7 points8 points9 points 4 hours ago (5 children) Port jumping only really works for a small number of people. They need tens of thousands of machines all coordinating. They can't do that if the machines don't know what phone number to call. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]phire 1 point2 points3 points 2 hours ago (4 children) There are ways around it. For example, BitTorrent clients typically select random ports automatically, and the currently active port numbers are communicated via a 3rd party (the tracker, or the DHT network). They already needed to share the active IPs via a third party so clients can connect to each other, easy enough to bundle a port too. Bittorrent also implements protocol encryption, because some ISPs were using deep packet inspection to identify connections using the bittorrent protocol. Encrypting the BitTorrent protocol neatly blocks this method, as long as both clients support encryption. Some ISPs tried pretty hard to block BitTorrent a decade ago, and they never found a successful method. It would be the same if they tired to block bitcoin. Bitcoin already has methods for communicating ip:port pairs to other peers, as the port is configurable by the user. Bitcoin would just need to add a feature to automatically randomise the ports. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]grauenwolfAgent of Poe 1 point2 points3 points 2 hours ago (3 children) Ah, you're making me work for it this time. The 3rd party is the real vulnerability. Everyone would need to know about it, meaning it can't be a secret, which means the government can easily find and block or shut down it. The advantage of BitTorrent is that it is a truly decentralized system. If you fragment the BitTorrent network into a dozen different pieces, each of those pieces will continue to work. A particular fragment might not have the file you need, but it's going to have a lot of files in those files are going to be accessible. Bitcoin is distributed, but it's not decentralized. It needs to be one cohesive network at pretty much at all times. If the network is broken into two, what's known as a network partition, it has no means of recovery other than dropping all of the completed transactions on one side or the other of the partition once it heals. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]phire 1 point2 points3 points 1 hour ago (2 children) Yes, the third party is a bit of a vulnerability. Though the cat and mouse goes a bit further. If ISPs or goverments start trying to block 3rd parties, then they will switch to using shared third parties. For example, putting the lists of peers on S3, reddit or facebook ways that the connections can't be blocked without massively inconveniencing legitimate services. And nodes only need to find one valid IP/port to connect to the network and then the fetch more node addresses from there. To effectively block the P2P layer, a government would eventually be forced to just maintain blocklists of every single node. I don't think a government would ever go down that route, because there are much easier methods. The on-ramps/off-ramps (exchanges) are much more vulnerable to targeted legal attacks and that produces more or less the same result. If money can't flow in and out, bitcoin is pragmatically worthless. If they really wanted to shut the network down, they are better off going after the miners and preventing more blocks from being created. I've talked about this attack vector before. It needs to be one cohesive network at pretty much at all times. If the network is broken into two, what's known as a network partition, Sure, there could be multiple partitions. But multiple partitions with different mining pools is unlikely to happen more than once or twice. Goes against their ideals of decentralisation, but in the face of such an attack, the mining pools would quickly learn to keep private encrypted connections between eachother. It would be impossible for governments to disrupt these links and partition mining pools, unless they directly attack the miners. Any partition that doesn't have communication with any mining pool will never see any new blocks, or have their transactions included. It has no means of recovery other than dropping all of the completed transactions on one side or the other of the partition once it heals. This is less of a problem that you suggest. The dropped transaction go back into the mempool and simply get included in future blocks. The block size limitations would make this scenario suck, but it doesn't fundamentally break anything. Someone might manage to pull off a double spend in the chaos, but that wouldn't be easy. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]grauenwolfAgent of Poe 1 point2 points3 points 27 minutes ago (1 child) I don't think a government would ever go down that route, because there are much easier methods. The on-ramps/off-ramps (exchanges) are much more vulnerable to targeted legal attacks I agree with that wholeheartedly. We'll probably never learn which of us is right on the other points because it would be stupid for the government to not just use the easy route. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]phire 0 points1 point2 points 3 minutes ago (0 children) Yeah. Most governments simply don't have the infrastructure to censor the internet at a per-connection level, but they already have large amounts of infrastructure for policing companies that enable money laundering and other illegal movement of money. And the one government that already had the level of internet censorship infrastructure to even start thinking about doing this (China), already cracked down on cryptocurrency and they went with route of suppressing on-ramps/off-ramps and outlawing mining operations. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]drdaeman 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago (1 child) “Hell yeah?” You, good sir, must have no idea what you’re talking about. ISPs hate being forced to set up any non-trivial traffic filtering. That’s extra work that doesn’t bring any money - neither clients nor governments pay for this. If anything, it consumes money - either in engineering hours or in licensing costs. And liabilities for not blocking something (especially sometime vaguely defined) is definitely not something that makes ISPs happier. Large telecoms (especially monopolies) can sorta shrug it off (still not being exactly happy unless there’s some scheme how to spend money in a way it goes in desirable pockets), smaller companies hate such ideas. Bandwidth saving is approached differently, most commonly by optimizing peering or deploying local caches. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]PresidentoftheSun 0 points1 point2 points 28 minutes ago (0 children) no idea what you're talking about I mean yeah probably. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]PatchworkFlames 8 points9 points10 points 8 hours ago (0 children) Who needs exit ramps when they never plan to sell? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Possible-8440 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago* (0 children) They say : " this will send Europe back into the stone age"."Europe really wants to be set back against the developed world and Chinaaa!!" "Eu is the worst country on the planet" 🤣🤣 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Malfrum 75 points76 points77 points 11 hours ago (2 children) I mean I think we've said for years that any world government could, at any moment, raid the crypto party and shut the whole shitshow down in a heartbeat. They just don't care to... yet permalink embed save report give award reply [–]powercow 20 points21 points22 points 8 hours ago (0 children) well i have always been amused when so many in the crypto subs think the SEC and the GOV are scared of crypto. If they were scared the game would be over already. The fact they want to label alt coins.. NOT BITCOIN but other alt coins as securities doenst mean they are scared of anything. and fuck like anything else, if it took off big business would be up to the neck in crypto. Banks already do have some investments into crypto. SO the idea they are scared is rather laughable. Yeah gov cant kill crypto, its sorta like tor in that respect, but they can hobble the fuck out of it, so its only useful for .. well the shit its used for right now. Illegal activity. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]easyj86 10 points11 points12 points 8 hours ago (0 children) Ya, the goal of government isn't to stop crime entirely, it's to be in control. Right now, crypto offers them a trail to target those if and so they wish. If they came down on it entirely, they'd lose that power. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Kooky_General_3292 11 points12 points13 points 8 hours ago (4 children) how am I supposed to buy coke now edit: i'm not kidding how am I supposed to buy my benzos now? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]amyo_b 11 points12 points13 points 7 hours ago (1 child) The traditional way, I guess. Make a connection with a shady dealer and exchange cash for the goods hoping that the sketchy dealer is too motivated by future profits to bump off his customers by selling tainted junk or just plain robbing them. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]doubleyewdee 5 points6 points7 points 3 hours ago (0 children) Literally you can just befriend (genuinely befriend, not be a schmoozing jerk) people in service industry, at least in the US coke flows through restaurant kitchens like water. I've had so many buddies who are servers/kitchen staff just say 'hey do you want a bump?' casually, they'll hook you up. (should note: never actually DONE the bumps, but just because cocaine isn't my personal preference in drugs, no judgment either way.) permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Possible-8440 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (0 children) Like all bros do, ask mom for it permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]LaughingAddict 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (0 children) The only good thing about crypto was drugs delivered to your door. With pharmacies and fucking doctors scared shitless of getting financially ruined, it’s become increasingly harder in the states to get help for pain management. It’s so much easier to just order what you need off the dark web. I hope society and doctors quit flipping the fuck out and get back to actually helping people. Now every doctor in my area is like Mother Theresa with the mindset of “suffering is what brings you closer to god, so you should suffer.” I wish I was joking. The pendulum has swung too fucking far toward Mother Theresa. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]marcio0 5 points6 points7 points 8 hours ago (0 children) would be the future of finance, if not for those pesky regulators! permalink embed save report give award reply [–]mangotree65 5 points6 points7 points 7 hours ago (0 children) Crypto brought the level of intelligence required for successful money laundering down to that of the average cryptobro. Laundering has been done by intelligent people for a long time. It remains to be seen if Bitcoin Bobby and Ethereum Ellie can pull it off without their crypto crutch but the tilted heads and dripping drool I see when I gaze their way doesn’t inspire confidence. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Mongorize 2 points3 points4 points 6 hours ago (0 children) Cue the meltdown in r/cc permalink embed save report give award reply [–]ililillillllili 2 points3 points4 points 5 hours ago* (1 child) is this entire sub just feds circlejerking each other? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Ok-Possible-8440 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago (0 children) Yes we are permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]EricBeTrappin 2 points3 points4 points 7 hours ago (0 children) just to be the devils advocate here, this applies to crypto asset service providers so it’s still equally as decentralized as it always has been, i mean nothing decentralized about going to a centralized site lol permalink embed save report give award reply [–]deadpanjunkie 2 points3 points4 points 6 hours ago (0 children) Cash is the only true decentralised currency, no one knows where it is at any one time. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]AmericanScream 2 points3 points4 points 5 hours ago (1 child) Congratulations crypto bros! You wanted to convince people crypto = money? This is the result! permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Ok-Row-6131 1 point2 points3 points 1 hour ago (0 children) Turns out they just wanted money without the laws associated with it permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]homezlice 2 points3 points4 points 3 hours ago (0 children) Laws. Turns out they exist. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Glad_Cauliflower8032 -4 points-3 points-2 points 6 hours ago (1 child) people can send to eachother via there private wallets, this is just for exchanges permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Pablanomexicano[S] 9 points10 points11 points 6 hours ago (0 children) Gotta cash out though. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [+]TIRBU6ONAwarning, I am a moron comment score below threshold-10 points-9 points-8 points 4 hours ago (7 children) So you celebrate government control over the people? Weirdos… permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Pablanomexicano[S] 5 points6 points7 points 3 hours ago* (4 children) You’re the same people that cry about your funds being stolen and that there are too many scams. Crytpobros cry about how it needs to be regulated to prevent such a thing. Then when regulations happen you cry about it being too much. You people are delusional! permalink embed save parent report give award reply [+]TIRBU6ONAwarning, I am a moron -1 points0 points1 point 47 minutes ago (3 children) “You people are delusional” or maybe you make a wrong generalisation about two or more kinds of people who match the scenarios above? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Pablanomexicano[S] 1 point2 points3 points 31 minutes ago (2 children) Bro you are all the same. Crying about don’t put your money on CEX’s you can’t trust them, Meme coins are pump and dumps. , and etc. What you crypto bros want is legality and legitimacy without the legality and legitimacy part. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [+]TIRBU6ONAwarning, I am a moron -1 points0 points1 point 23 minutes ago (1 child) Sure, millions of people are exactly the same, very sane theory. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Pablanomexicano[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 minutes ago (0 children) Sooo you want to continue to get scammed and get ripped off from your money!? Lol you people are dumb permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Row-6131 6 points7 points8 points 4 hours ago (0 children) Yes, yes we do. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Possible-8440 2 points3 points4 points 2 hours ago (0 children) Yeeeeeess we fucking do 👮 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]montuckyv2 -21 points-20 points-19 points 8 hours ago (4 children) Tells you how scared they are of losing control. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]IAMA_Plumber-AMA 20 points21 points22 points 7 hours ago (0 children) Lol, "scared". More like they've been letting cryptobros play store, and now that people are getting scammed, they're bringing the hammer down. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]VintageLunchMeat 1 point2 points3 points 3 hours ago (0 children) Control? Cryptocoins don't benefit society. Moreover, they cause demonstrable harm, be it co2 emissions, money laundering, asset hiding, exchange administrators running thefts, or, perhaps most importantly, defrauding newbies by telling them cryptocoins are a reliable technology and are a safe investment. Why tolerate their existence? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–][deleted] 5 hours ago (1 child) [removed] [–]spookmann👻[M] 1 point2 points3 points 4 hours ago (0 children) Un-called for. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [+]auron66 comment score below threshold-30 points-29 points-28 points 8 hours ago (3 children) Government and banks really can’t digest crypto isn’t? Money laundry my ass, criminal and rich people will always find their way to laundry their dirty money, is just an excuse to not let the banks be replaced permalink embed save report give award reply [–]IAMA_Plumber-AMA 18 points19 points20 points 7 hours ago (0 children) Lol, get real. Governments could regulate crypto out of existence tomorrow if they wished. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]thehoesmakethemanincendiary and presumptuous (but not always wrong) 4 points5 points6 points 5 hours ago (0 children) banks be replaced? has crypto ever issued even a single mortgage, ever? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ok-Possible-8440 1 point2 points3 points 2 hours ago (0 children) Are you sad cause your bank account is empty🥲 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [+]areq13warning, I am a moron comment score below threshold-62 points-61 points-60 points 11 hours ago (8 children) And I just passed gas, which has the same effect on the blockchain. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]SpandexPanFried 53 points54 points55 points 11 hours ago (3 children) Nobody gives a shit about the coins themselves, or what they do on the blockchain. They care when people try to convert them to fiat. Go ahead, try and sell even one bitcoin for cash without using an exchange to do it. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]fattybread83 14 points15 points16 points 10 hours ago (0 children) They're gonna have to move to South America to be able to live... permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]LaughingAddict 15 points16 points17 points 10 hours ago (1 child) Only possible through IRL transactions. As in you hand me briefcase of money and I give you frou frou token. Seems like a good deal…. This will push crypto into shadier corners. I don’t know how much rope they have left honestly before they hang themselves with it. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]dubov 8 points9 points10 points 9 hours ago (0 children) Future of finance permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]BigFreakingPope 13 points14 points15 points 10 hours ago (0 children) Good luck paying your taxes, rent, mortgage or anything else meaningful in crypto. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]SufficientAnalyst383 6 points7 points8 points 8 hours ago (0 children) Flair checks out. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]PatchworkFlames 4 points5 points6 points 8 hours ago (0 children) That's because the blockchain is divorced from reality. You understand it doesn't matter how much bitcoin you have, you need to convert it to cash to buy that lambo, right? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]sometimesworkhard 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago (0 children) This is good for Bitcoin. permalink embed save report give award reply

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Cryptocurrency: Ledger Adds Key Exfiltration, Users Launch Smashing Revolt
by grarpamp 16 May '23

16 May '23

Ledger keeps screwing up. Trezor often seen as better. In reality, neither, nor any other digital gizmo is needed. https://v.redd.it/06cyilqto70b1 Old School Sledger Attack Ledger is officially a hot wallet. It can expose your seed phrase to third parties! (Confirmed on their sub) (self.CryptoCurrency) by BusinessBreakfast3 I woke up to shocking news! TLDR The ledger device actually can expose your seed phrase to the internet. Initially it was a speculation and people were expecting updates. Eventually, we got them: https://np.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/13itm7u/is_there_a_backdoor_y… So yes, it's a service your can opt for for "recovery services", but the bottom line is that it can expose the seed phrase. Ultimately, it's a matter of the French government knocking on their doors and asking for it. This actually makes your funds at Ledger less safe than on MetaMask. At least we don't have a confirmation that other hot wallets can access or keep copies of the seed phrases. Leger, it was nice while it lasted... But it's game over. Edit: to the people downvoting my comments: I'm also a Ledger user. Have been using it for multiple years to store my crypto. I'm not happy that this happened and I hate the upcoming inconvenience of buying new wallets and sending crypto back and forth. But unfortunately, this is the reality. :( Edit 2: Many users say but you can choose not to opt-in!!1 You can't opt out of the device being able to leak data to the internet. You can only opt out of Ledger doing it with intent. Edit 3: They just doubled down on Twitter spaces. They described the product and didn't address the relevant comments and concerns. They kept repeating that it's an "opt in service" and finished by saying that their product is not for people with more than $50k. 1640 comments [–]CryptoMaximalistBitconnect Whale[M] [score hidden] 13 hours ago* stickied commentlocked comment (14 children) In situations like this, we try to pin official responses so readers have both sides of the story. If there is further information from Ledger, we would be happy to add it here. Ledger has since posted this FAQ page and the following video: https://twitter.com/Ledger/status/1658458714771169282 permalink embed save report give award load more comments (14 replies) [–]zoomercoomer9000 400 points401 points402 points 18 hours ago* (93 children) The crazy thing is Ledger didn't provide details about this new feature on their website or any obvious place. Until recently, you had to dig under 8 paragraphs on an unrelated article about FTX customers just to find it. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ftx-crypto-investors-hardware-wallets Ledger is preparing to launch a new service called Ledger Recover that splits a wallet recovery phrase—basically, a human-readable form of the private key—into three encrypted shards and distributes them to three custodians: Ledger, crypto custody firm Coincover, and code escrow company EscrowTech. If somebody loses their recovery phrase, two of the three shards can be combined—pending an ID check—to regain access to the locked funds. Essentially, Ledger Recover is an additional safety net; for the price of $9.99 a month, it takes the jeopardy out of crypto’s version of stuffing dollars under the mattress. It’ll be available in the UK, EU, US, and Canada and come to other territories later in the year. You would think they'd display this information more prominently, especially as it concerns something that fundamentally changes their business model. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]springdot1Tin 145 points146 points147 points 14 hours ago (33 children) “ - pending an ID check - “ Well that’s fine then. Not like everybody keeps repeatedly getting their government issued ID and other info repeatedly exfiltrated from any company they do business with 🙄 permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]KiiaruUneducated Opinion 69 points70 points71 points 13 hours ago (7 children) So you can get your identity stolen and your crypto drained all at once! It's a feature not a bug... permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]conceiv3d-in-lib3rty 28 points29 points30 points 11 hours ago (5 children) This is absolute bullshit. There’s no way ledger survives this blunder. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (5 replies) [–]BentPinPlatinum | QC: ETH 38 | MiningSubs 28 5 points6 points7 points 8 hours ago (0 children) Don't forget to pay for this privilege. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]sweet_tinkerbelle 51 points52 points53 points 13 hours ago (21 children) so it's just banking with extra steps pshh. But I have an idea why they are doing this. Must be some people forgetting or losing their seedphrases and blaming ledger for it like the idiots they are. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]trancephorm 53 points54 points55 points 13 hours ago (16 children) No, they almost certanly doing it out of political pressure. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Kodeshii 17 points18 points19 points 10 hours ago (0 children) Well this makes me scared for the security of my coins on my Ledger now!! permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Legitimate-Source-61Tin | 4 months old 9 points10 points11 points 11 hours ago (2 children) If it's political, then Trezor will soon follow. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]CaponcapoffstillonSilver | QC: CC 286, DOGE 157, BTC 106 | r/CMS 229 4 points5 points6 points 10 hours ago (0 children) This, seems like governments are making the companies crack. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (12 replies) [–]DentinQuarantino 25 points26 points27 points 13 hours ago (1 child) Perhaps you're not as cynical as me... But the underhand way they've brought this out combined with what they're actually doing makes me think it's more likely pressured from the authorities to undermine cryptos power. Whatever the reason I'm glad I haven't got a Ledger! permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–]zomgitsdukePlatinum | QC: BTC 107, CC 16 | LegalAdvice 167 4 points5 points6 points 13 hours ago* (0 children) "We are sorry our outsourced workforce mass-approved a series of 100 photoshopped ID photos and handed over your crypto. We are investigating the now-bankrupt company and will try to sue them for recovery of your funds. No promises though." permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]Josefumi12 10 points11 points12 points 15 hours ago (1 child) Another reason to not trust them permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 72 points73 points74 points 18 hours ago (18 children) Crazy! They're done. It's game over. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (18 replies) [–]hadoob024 6 points7 points8 points 14 hours ago (11 children) Is this an optional service? Are you able to opt out of it? God I hope so permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (11 replies) load more comments (26 replies) [–]JeremyBFPlatinum | QC: BTC 311, CC 209 212 points213 points214 points 19 hours ago (39 children) Wow. WTF! A hardware wallet that CAN broadcast your keys to the internet. Fucking POINTLESS. Might as well just use a software wallet then. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BiggusDickus-Silver | QC: CC 266, SOL 32, ETH 22 | VET 560 | TraderSubs 76 23 points24 points25 points 10 hours ago (6 children) It is a flat out violation of their very directly claim that the seed cannot physically leave the device under any circumstances. Obviously that was just a flat out lie. Perhaps the silver lining is that the blowback will be so hard that they will make new models that really are that way. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]TheLuckyO1neTin | LRC 14 | Superstonk 259 13 points14 points15 points 5 hours ago (0 children) As if anyone would trust them now lmao permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (5 replies) [–]Mr_Bob_FergusonPlatinum | QC: CC 445 49 points50 points51 points 17 hours ago (1 child) A hardware wallet ...and not just any hardware wallet, but THE one that is always recommended. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 44 points45 points46 points 18 hours ago (16 children) Exactly! And I'm getting downvoted for suggesting that. Anyway, I'm getting BitBox02 or Coldcard today. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]the_nin_collector 17 points18 points19 points 17 hours ago (2 children) any reason not to consider a trezor? honestly curious. Haven't compared wallets in a long time permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]BlockchainFoxTin 5 points6 points7 points 12 hours ago (0 children) Yeah what about trezor? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Ur_mothers_keeper 4 points5 points6 points 11 hours ago (3 children) Do either of those support monero? permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (8 replies) [–]helobro11 2 points3 points4 points 15 hours ago (0 children) Exactly bro 💯 permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (12 replies) [–]middlemangv 545 points546 points547 points 20 hours ago (212 children) If this is true, then this is pretty disappointing. They literally lost the only reason why I wanted to buy them.. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]SkuniMasterMind 269 points270 points271 points 19 hours ago* (40 children) hey literally lost the only reason why I wanted to buy them They really compromised their biggest selling point... for $10 a month permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]emp-sup-bryBronze | QC: CC 22 | LRC 6 48 points49 points50 points 15 hours ago (7 children) Subscription model preys on the idea that people are overwhelmed (somewhat by the goddamn number of subscriptions) and will just pay forever permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]SkuniMasterMind 28 points29 points30 points 15 hours ago (6 children) Subscription models were just transition from micro-transactions to not so micro anymore. Yet - we swallowed it permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]gt4674bTin 7 points8 points9 points 14 hours ago (1 child) Not sure about that yet. I think people are starting to wake up to the financial realities and will start making more rational purchase choices. Maybe. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (4 replies) [–]89timeTin 46 points47 points48 points 18 hours ago (16 children) Damn, total palmface. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]deathbyfish13Free Range Moon Farmer 16 points17 points18 points 18 hours ago (4 children) I'm trying to figure out why they would do this but all it's making me want to do is headwall permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]ice_blade_sorc 9 points10 points11 points 17 hours ago (1 child) If "money" isn't the answer to your question then I'll wallbang my head myself permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–]Mr_Bob_FergusonPlatinum | QC: CC 445 17 points18 points19 points 17 hours ago (7 children) Damn, total palmface. As they say... "$10 is $10". permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]MetaploidTin 10 points11 points12 points 17 hours ago (2 children) A man's gotta eat permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]Aim_SuxPlatinum | QC: ETH 135, CC 346 | TraderSubs 135 5 points6 points7 points 16 hours ago (1 child) No, $10 is about $3.50 permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]user260421Platinum | QC: CC 44, ETH 23 | TraderSubs 10 3 points4 points5 points 16 hours ago (0 children) Now I totally get their decision! /s permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (15 replies) [–]StolenApe 83 points84 points85 points 17 hours ago (16 children) This seed saving service I think makes sense for a hot wallet, like a mobile app. People don’t save their seeds, or save them on their phones and then lose their phone. Lol. Online, encrypted seed saving is about on par with the risk profile of a mobile hot wallet. A ledger on the other hand… People who buy one have made the decision to increase their security to the best possible security available. Then suggesting those people should compromise the security they have just purchased by doing the one thing they are never meant to do is just insane permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (16 replies) [–]ErmingardiaPlatinum | QC: CC 540 | Unpop.Opin. 50 34 points35 points36 points 18 hours ago (28 children) I was about to buy one this month, very disappointed... permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Lillica_Golden_SHIBBronze | BANANO 5 | TraderSubs 13 32 points33 points34 points 18 hours ago (15 children) I bought a new one three or four months ago. Feeling a bit uneasy about it... permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]pjlsnapTin 16 points17 points18 points 15 hours ago (2 children) Two months ago here, waste of 150$ permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (12 replies) [–]Aim_SuxPlatinum | QC: ETH 135, CC 346 | TraderSubs 135 8 points9 points10 points 18 hours ago (8 children) Might as well as open another Metamask Wallet for free permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (8 replies) [–]Josefumi12 3 points4 points5 points 18 hours ago (2 children) You're disappointed but at least you are still saving and not spending your money. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]Every_Hunt_160Platinum | QC: CC 672 | r/SSB 10 36 points37 points38 points 19 hours ago (11 children) Ledger asking people for their seed phrase is pretty strange indeed. Next thing you know KFC is gonna turn to a Broccoli restaurant permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]slasula 13 points14 points15 points 18 hours ago (1 child) vile weed permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (9 replies) [–]redthepotato 16 points17 points18 points 19 hours ago (26 children) Well this sucks. Is Trezor better? My ledger isn't even a year old yet. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]bidet_enthusiastTin | Futurology 11 20 points21 points22 points 18 hours ago (17 children) The trezzor code can also be modified to expose the seed. The problem seems to be that ledger made this capability into a feature in their code. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]macethefacePlatinum | QC: LW 92, BTC 45, CC 37 | ADA 15 | TraderSubs 28 11 points12 points13 points 17 hours ago (1 child) Belive you need physical access to the Trezor for that hack tho permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]RunsOnJava98 5 points6 points7 points 17 hours ago (3 children) There was a YouTube video where one person accessed the physical device and was able to grab the PIN from its RAM after changing a few things. But, I don’t think it was the seed phrase. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]ElonMusk0fficialBronze | Pers.Fin. 18 8 points9 points10 points 15 hours ago (0 children) I wouldn’t consider someone using advanced electronics to listen in on a hardware level to the chips “changing a few things”. This woikd have to be a person specific attack where you have access to the physical wallet itself. I don’t own or recommend any wallet but that attack isn’t feasible outside of one off attacks where you can get to a person and access their hardware wallet permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (11 replies) load more comments (8 replies) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 36 points37 points38 points 20 hours ago (17 children) Great timing. I have two devices which I'll dispose of soon. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]partymslPlatinum | QC: CC 702 | r/WSB 16 36 points37 points38 points 18 hours ago (7 children) This decision will really cost them a lot of money. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]blitzlurkerno one knows anything 45 points46 points47 points 18 hours ago (2 children) Even if they reverse the decision the damage is done. The trust is broken. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]OPTIMUS-PRIME27Tin 5 points6 points7 points 17 hours ago (0 children) Trust shattered, scars remain - actions speak louder than words. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 22 points23 points24 points 18 hours ago (2 children) Definitely! I'll spread the word forever. Although I was a user, I'm still holding a grudge from the data leak. :) permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]StarbugIThey're all dead. Everybody's dead, Dave. 9 points10 points11 points 18 hours ago (0 children) Agreed, was not impressed at the data leak. This is the icing on the cake. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–]blitzlurkerno one knows anything 25 points26 points27 points 18 hours ago (3 children) Kinda pissed off finding this post a day after I ordered one. I doubt I'll be able to get my cash back but I'll try because an exploit like this should be a valid reason for a refund. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]Aim_SuxPlatinum | QC: ETH 135, CC 346 | TraderSubs 135 19 points20 points21 points 18 hours ago (3 children) Boy this move is gonna bite back Ledger right in their asses permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 24 points25 points26 points 18 hours ago (2 children) First they leaked our data, now they leak our seed phrases. Let them burn! permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–]Which-Occasion-9246 7 points8 points9 points 18 hours ago (0 children) Agreed. Very disappointing... goes against what cold wallet stands for. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (67 replies) [–]jimmycryptsoSilver | QC: CC 31, BCH 29 | CelsiusNet. 69 72 points73 points74 points 17 hours ago (4 children) Somehow they managed to survive the massive data leak of customer info. I don't think they will survive this though. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 38 points39 points40 points 17 hours ago (1 child) My email was leaked and I "forgave" them. Won't do it this time. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]jimmycryptsoSilver | QC: CC 31, BCH 29 | CelsiusNet. 69 4 points5 points6 points 17 hours ago (0 children) Same. Luckily I used a burner email and no longer have the same address or phone number. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]rock-island321 250 points251 points252 points 19 hours ago (45 children) They'll be killing their business if that's true. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 126 points127 points128 points 19 hours ago (23 children) Killed it from my perspective. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]rock-island321 52 points53 points54 points 19 hours ago (11 children) Bitcoin University will be doing a video on that today or tomorrow I expect. He'll break it down. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]deathbyfish13Free Range Moon Farmer 23 points24 points25 points 18 hours ago (5 children) I don't see how it's not killing it, this goes against their main selling point. I'll for sure watch the video when it comes out but I'm not expecting anything shocking permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Aim_SuxPlatinum | QC: ETH 135, CC 346 | TraderSubs 135 6 points7 points8 points 16 hours ago (4 children) It's like KFC decided to stop selling fried chicken and started selling boiled chicken permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (11 replies) [–]dorfelsnorfPlatinum | QC: CC 186 | CRO 14 | ExchSubs 14 17 points18 points19 points 17 hours ago (1 child) What are they thinking. A security focused device that screws up their security is nothing to have. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]rock-island321 6 points7 points8 points 17 hours ago (0 children) It could be they are aligning themselves with soon-to-be regulation. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]DerpJungler"CryptoBro" 25 points26 points27 points 18 hours ago (6 children) I feel bad for everyone who purchased their product. We now have to be incredibly more sceptical when buying cold wallets.. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]CoronaryAssistanceBronze | QC: CC 21 | r/SSB 12 10 points11 points12 points 13 hours ago (1 child) Besides ledger and Trezor what other option even is there? permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]SulkyVirusPlatinum | QC: GPUmining 46, CC 35 | Stocks 69 5 points6 points7 points 12 hours ago (1 child) Just got one and moved everything over a couple months ago... Ugh. So is this a case where as long as I don't sign up for that service my seed is still secure? Or did they push and update out and as soon as I plug my cold wallet in it will compromise my seed? permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–]The_Lombard_FoxTin 7 points8 points9 points 16 hours ago (0 children) Kind of defeats the entire purpose of a cold wallet permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Josefumi12 9 points10 points11 points 18 hours ago (1 child) They're just inverting their own business model /s permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]user260421Platinum | QC: CC 44, ETH 23 | TraderSubs 10 3 points4 points5 points 16 hours ago (1 child) Maybe they're gonna do the same as paypal when they tried to slip something in their T&Cs (the ability to fine you 2k if they don't agree with your views), then they took it back and introduced it later again when people were paying less attention. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]ArcosimSilver | QC: CC 51 | VET 22 | Technology 39 3 points4 points5 points 15 hours ago (0 children) It's insane, they were able to turn the name of their company into the synonymous for cold wallet, and now they did this for a $10 bucks a month completely unnecessary service. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (6 replies) [–]Plasticites 176 points177 points178 points 19 hours ago (16 children) Why did they have to go and screw this up? I used to be able to sleep at night having my Ledger permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 43 points44 points45 points 19 hours ago (3 children) Likewise, my friend. It's really unfortunate! permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]JoNwOrDy 21 points22 points23 points 14 hours ago (1 child) Ledger Recover: the gift that keeps on giving (to hackers). permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]FAyouPAB 5 points6 points7 points 13 hours ago (0 children) Greed. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (9 replies) [–]sw1mhouse 110 points111 points112 points 16 hours ago (18 children) Would a class action be applicable?! This is ridiculous . . . permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Josefumi12 51 points52 points53 points 14 hours ago (2 children) I need refunds permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]sw1mhouse 33 points34 points35 points 14 hours ago (0 children) I'd gladly take that too. This is absurd . . . They completely obliterated their use case. We all could have stuck with free hot wallets permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]LeThaLxdARkSilver | QC: CC 53, BTC 19 | CRO 67 | ExchSubs 72 8 points9 points10 points 10 hours ago (0 children) Same, got more than only one and not only that, but false advertisement is illegal and apparently put me at a risk i wasn’t willing to take with anyone else but myself permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Deep90Platinum | QC: CC 25 | Pers.Fin. 20 6 points7 points8 points 11 hours ago* (5 children) I would say it's unlikely unless ledger actually experiences a breach. Also need more information on how all of this works and if it's actually compromising even if you opt out. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]sw1mhouse 16 points17 points18 points 11 hours ago (3 children) Agreed but I do think they duped their customer base. I & most others I'm aware of wanted a cold wallet with no compromises. It's starts like this & ends in KYC everytime essentially defeating the purpose permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (9 replies) [–]TwistedGlassesTin 55 points56 points57 points 18 hours ago (18 children) Oh come on... I just bought one last month. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 22 points23 points24 points 18 hours ago (7 children) It's tough to accept... I have two myself. :( Security above all, that's it. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]TwistedGlassesTin 12 points13 points14 points 18 hours ago (6 children) The only thing I'm hoping is the 24 seed phrase must be saved manually, if some kind of software can retrieve it automatically then this wallet has lost its purpose. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]chahouaPlatinum | QC: CC 51 | TraderSubs 11 16 points17 points18 points 16 hours ago (0 children) If it's not done by saving the seed manually then ledger has been lying to their customers for a long time. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]perfect5-7-with-riceBronze | QC: BTC 21 | CRO 14 | Apple 24 4 points5 points6 points 11 hours ago (3 children) They confirmed it is loaded from the ledger's secure chip permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 8 points9 points10 points 18 hours ago (0 children) That's the actual problem! Now, it turned out that the device can. It's not a cold wallet anymore. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (10 replies) [–]KlemenKisi 206 points207 points208 points 20 hours ago (52 children) This is some serious customer misleading practice. If I knew this, I would never buy it in first place. Basically makes my Ledger worthless now (ok maybe exaggeration, but still I would rather have a normal free hot wallet instead of spending 150EUR on the physical one) permalink embed save report give award reply [–]kirtash93The Ash Ketchum of Crypto | Gotta Catch 'Em All 126 points127 points128 points 18 hours ago (15 children) This "feature" basically breaks the whole point of a cold wallet. I dont know who is behind this great idea but it is a pretty dumb mistake. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]KlemenKisi 29 points30 points31 points 18 hours ago (10 children) I cant believe what were they thinking, they probably dont follow this subreddit haha permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]VicBear93 40 points41 points42 points 18 hours ago (7 children) It's honestly like they thought up the worst thing they could do...and did it. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]KlemenKisi 22 points23 points24 points 18 hours ago (3 children) So someone had this idea, and someone else had to approve it. Double dumb permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]excubitor15379 10 points11 points12 points 18 hours ago (1 child) In theory it could be the same person permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–]Josefumi12 8 points9 points10 points 18 hours ago (0 children) Seems like my ledger is slowly become hot hard wallet with an extra pin because of this feature. I don't agree with this even though they say it is optional. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]_who_is_they_ 36 points37 points38 points 17 hours ago (5 children) I wonder if lawsuits are in order. I feel scammed. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]KlemenKisi 28 points29 points30 points 16 hours ago (1 child) Same here. Kinda want my money back permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]pjlsnapTin 9 points10 points11 points 15 hours ago (0 children) Yup $150 permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]redthepotato 28 points29 points30 points 19 hours ago (3 children) This. I spent money on something I could have gotten for free when it could have gone through my crypto investment. Isn't this misrepresenting a product? The co-founder in the thread still ain't giving up on his stance that nothing changes. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]TrylksJust joking! 8 points9 points10 points 18 hours ago* (0 children) If it is broken now and “nothing has changed” then it was always broken. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]KlemenKisi 11 points12 points13 points 18 hours ago (0 children) As consumers we should have been aware of this before purchase. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]89timeTin 10 points11 points12 points 18 hours ago (5 children) I want cold storage so bad, but stuff like this makes me stick to hot wallets and CEXs. I hope things change. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]KlemenKisi 7 points8 points9 points 18 hours ago (4 children) at least you didnt buy it yet permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]89timeTin 5 points6 points7 points 18 hours ago (3 children) Question is, which wallet to buy now? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]excubitor15379 7 points8 points9 points 18 hours ago (0 children) As far as I know trezor is fine so far permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 12 points13 points14 points 20 hours ago* (9 children) Fully agree. The problem becomes bigger for users that have 6 figures or more. I'm not comfortable with hot wallets permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]KlemenKisi 12 points13 points14 points 19 hours ago (8 children) yep, I guess best way to handle crypto is really just having 20 wallets with smaller amounts on them... permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (8 replies) load more comments (10 replies) [–]moonpumperSilver|QC:CC58,ETH19,BTC16|GMEJungle97|Superstonk522 119 points120 points121 points 17 hours ago (36 children) Have they confirmed the device actually exposes the seed phrase or do you have to enter the seed phrase yourself when signing up for their back up services? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]maninthecryptosuitPlatinum | QC: ETH 95, CC 18 90 points91 points92 points 15 hours ago (26 children) The cofounder Nicola confirmed the seed phrase leaves the secure element..... interestingly in a reply to the exact question you asked. https://np.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/13itm7u/-/jkbxxhy permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]moonpumperSilver|QC:CC58,ETH19,BTC16|GMEJungle97|Superstonk522 25 points26 points27 points 15 hours ago (0 children) I saw after some digging. I wish the comment wasn't downvoted into oblivion so everyone could find out for themselves straight from the horse's mouth. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (25 replies) [–]Lobsters_Are_Ugly 22 points23 points24 points 16 hours ago (1 child) This is a really important point, if it's the former that's just shocking but I highly doubt ledger would implement that. Regardless the optics of this is terrible. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]bricarpPlatinum | QC: CC 28 | CRO 22 | ExchSubs 26 8 points9 points10 points 13 hours ago (0 children) Explicitly confirmed by the co-founder of Ledger. It is indeed the former. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (7 replies) [–]Snaggletoothlover 29 points30 points31 points 15 hours ago (2 children) Also Ledger: "Never share your 24-word recovery phrase with anyone- NOT EVEN LEDGER." https://www.ledger.com/academy/crypto/what-is-a-recovery-phrase permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]hookmanukTin | CRO 7 467 points468 points469 points 19 hours ago (62 children) Amazed that OP is being voted down in this thread. Ledger just announced that they have the technical capability to pull your seed off your device, and everyone is OK with that? Crazy. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Josefumi12 135 points136 points137 points 19 hours ago (11 children) Hardwallet should not have the ability to do that. The main reason i bought hardwallet is to make sure my seed is not exposed and i don't remember ordering a device that can transmit my seed. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]kirtash93The Ash Ketchum of Crypto | Gotta Catch 'Em All 51 points52 points53 points 18 hours ago* (8 children) The whole basic point of a cold wallet thrown in the sea. Ledger the new expensive HOT wallet. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Lillica_Golden_SHIBBronze | BANANO 5 | TraderSubs 13 4 points5 points6 points 18 hours ago (2 children) Very disappointing. Thank goodness we have other options at least. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]TheRealestLarryDavid 3 points4 points5 points 15 hours ago (1 child) what is the best option. i have a ledger for a few years and been out of touch with what's available permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Lillica_Golden_SHIBBronze | BANANO 5 | TraderSubs 13 3 points4 points5 points 15 hours ago (0 children) I'm thinking about getting a Trezor, gonna start looking at models and reading reviews. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 79 points80 points81 points 19 hours ago (11 children) I'm flabergasted as well. Trying to save people and they attack you. Crazy! permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (11 replies) [–]chance_watersPlatinum | QC: CC 61 | NANO 18 | AvatarTrading 29 32 points33 points34 points 19 hours ago (18 children) They have not accounced how, at this point it is fully possible you need to physically enter it for the encryption to occur. There's very poor communication from them. These encrypted recovery services are becoming standard though - they are necessary for adoption. This is on the roadmap for all the hardware wallets. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]CCNightcoreBronze | Science 11 50 points51 points52 points 18 hours ago (1 child) It's a pretty dumb move either way. They should sell it as a different product and make 2x as much money and not alienate their current users. Dumbasses permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]WeaselJCDTin | Superstonk 25 13 points14 points15 points 18 hours ago (7 children) my comment was deleted, but the founder said in another subreddit that the devices sends it "The device sends encrypted shards of your seed to different companies if you decide to use the service. You can of course still choose to backup it yourself." I can't link to it, but you should find it in the ledger subreddit permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (7 replies) load more comments (8 replies) load more comments (19 replies) [–]Fuglypump 23 points24 points25 points 15 hours ago (1 child) This should turn into a class action lawsuit, I would never have bought a ledger if I had known they were going to do this. permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]UrbanWoodyTin 25 points26 points27 points 14 hours ago (9 children) They have just posted an update https://twitter.com/Ledger/status/1658458714771169282 permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (9 replies) [–]candlefirez 196 points197 points198 points 19 hours ago (68 children) Time to build your own hardware wallet. Not your hardware wallet, not your coins. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Questioning-Pen 90 points91 points92 points 16 hours ago (4 children) If everyone needs to build their own hardware wallets for their coins to be safe, crypto’s prospects for mass adoption are in severe trouble. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (4 replies) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 44 points45 points46 points 19 hours ago (46 children) I'm on the verge of buying BitBox02 or Coldcard for my Bitcoin, but what you're saying might be the ultimate truth at the end. Open source would definitely make me sleep better. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]redkoilSilver | QC: CC 37, ETH 24, BTC 18 | r/SSB 8 | Privacy 10 15 points16 points17 points 16 hours ago (13 children) Please be aware that Coldcard has the same possibility to export your private keys out of the device. I'm not going to trust such a device and it was the reason I went with ledger.. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 8 points9 points10 points 16 hours ago (12 children) Yup, just found that out as well. BitBox02 and Trezor for the final competition. Trezor One is great, but the 25th word (passphrase) needs to be input on a PC, not on the device itself. That's the only thing I dislike, but maybe it's okay. What would you go for? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]G4METin | PCmasterrace 22 5 points6 points7 points 14 hours ago (0 children) Go with bitbox it is made by one of the bitcoin core maintainers, you can have a 25th word which needs to be entered on the bitbox itself. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (11 replies) [–]Dazzling_Lime2021Platinum | QC: BAT 146 30 points31 points32 points 18 hours ago (18 children) I think Coldcard is the best possible hardware we have so far. Not sure if Bitbox does this, but with the Coldcard you can sign transactions without ever plugging it into a computer. They have an attachment where it can be powered by a 9 volt battery and you use SD cards to broadcast transactions. Neat stuff. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 11 points12 points13 points 18 hours ago (6 children) Oh wow! I'll watch some videos on that right away! Not sure if that's a potential risk, but I'll investigate the pros and cons of both. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Dazzling_Lime2021Platinum | QC: BAT 146 13 points14 points15 points 18 hours ago (4 children) Yeah I'm actually looking for a second hardware wallet (currently using Trezor). Almost bought a ledger and I'm glad I didn't now lol. Might have to check out Bitbox too, the Coldcard is a bit expensive but it does have a lot of security features. Check out BTC Sessions on Youtube, he did a good video on it permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Aim_SuxPlatinum | QC: ETH 135, CC 346 | TraderSubs 135 5 points6 points7 points 16 hours ago (3 children) Whats the best choice for someone who holds coins/tokens on multiple networks like BTC, ETH, Cosmos...etc ? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]fnetmaPlatinum | QC: CC 21 | ADA 6 4 points5 points6 points 14 hours ago (1 child) Probably Trezor permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (11 replies) [–]poyosoPlatinum | QC: XLM 59, CC 56 | SHIB 16 | AvatarTrading 39 8 points9 points10 points 18 hours ago (5 children) How can you trust those devices though? How can you be certain that they also dont leak? Because they said so? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 21 points22 points23 points 18 hours ago (4 children) They're open source. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]special_onigiri 6 points7 points8 points 16 hours ago (1 child) As a software developer, I'll never get tired of saying Open Source is King. Base is public everyone can contribute and build on top of it, which means variety, which in turn gives people more options and will spread thin those who are trying to exploit vulnerabilities and exploits. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]Mr_Bob_FergusonPlatinum | QC: CC 445 7 points8 points9 points 17 hours ago (1 child) And to expand on this point further... Basically all the biggest encryption algorithms used for security in general are open source. Open source means that plenty of eyes from various organisations (and individuals) can look over it. And just because people can see the code doesn't mean that it any less secure. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (7 replies) load more comments (16 replies) [–]Maxx3141Platinum | QC: CC 2677 139 points140 points141 points 20 hours ago (54 children) I think it's still important to share the full details. If I got it right, the device produces three shards with a concept similar to Shamir’s Secret Sharing, and shares it with Ledger and two partner companies. Two of these shards are needed to recover your seed and knowing one shard gives you no relevant entropy advantage when trying to brute-force it. With that being said, I still hate the feature. This still heavily relies on trust, and the connected PC can at least request the shards - opening new ways to exploit it with man-in-the-middle or social engineering attacks. The best solution would be offering a separate fw without this feature for the "fundamentalists" - similar to Trezor and Bitbox which offer BTC-only-firmwares for their devices. Still I'd have a hard time to recommend a Ledger to newcomers from now on. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]R0Y-BATTYBronze 53 points54 points55 points 19 hours ago* (13 children) 100% this firmware that allows this feature needs to be optional, otherwise I’d be out, in reality you never really know what they are putting on a device when they update firmware so there is always a matter of trust. But yeah this isn’t a good move by them and a very odd thing to do for the small amount of people who might want it. I will wait to see what is said on the coming days before having a public meltdown like BusinessBreakfast is having, though I share their concerns. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Qu1bbz 47 points48 points49 points 16 hours ago (1 child) You realise that it doesn't matter if it's optional right? The fact that it's even possible to extract your seed literally breaks the entire purpose of a hardware wallet. As soon as you have to trust ledger to not extract your seed phrase you might as well use a bank? Besides ledger themselves this leaves the possibility for your ledger firmware to be compromised by a 3rd party to be able to extract your seed. The firmware is also proprietary, so who knows if this feature didn't exist already and whether or not they already extracted everyones keys? permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]grandphubaSilver | QC: CC 56 | ADA 49 | ModeratePolitics 199 38 points39 points40 points 17 hours ago (3 children) 100% this firmware that allows this feature needs to be optional, otherwise I’d be out You don't seem to be grasping the extent of the issue. The fact the hardware can leak your keys should be more than enough to put you off, regardless of the firmware. Firmware and software can be updated, the hardware can't. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]Lillica_Golden_SHIBBronze | BANANO 5 | TraderSubs 13 4 points5 points6 points 18 hours ago (1 child) I hope they come up with more information on it, although I think it is very unlikely they actually say anything that makes this situation look better. Anyway, the simple fact there is a backdoor now makes the whole thing extremely concerning to me. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]VicBear93 4 points5 points6 points 17 hours ago (0 children) The Crypto space isn't short of people looking to exploit anything they can either. If something can be exploited, then someone will find a way. Its a disaster waiting to happen. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (5 replies) [–]chestyspankersTin 6 points7 points8 points 13 hours ago (0 children) I am surprised that in a crypto subreddit, so few people seem to be aware of Shamir's secret sharing or what an encrypted shard means. To most it appears they think their seed phrase is leaked directly from the device with no checks in place. I agree with your assessment and caveats, I guess I am just shocked that I had to scroll so far to find a well balanced comment about encryption on a subreddit that is for enthusiasts about encrypted currency. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Mr_Bob_FergusonPlatinum | QC: CC 445 4 points5 points6 points 17 hours ago (1 child) Still I'd have a hard time to recommend a Ledger to newcomers from now on. I think we're now going to see an instead dive in recommendations in the sub. But I think that your other suggestion will also come true, that they'll offer a version without the feature ...or just remove it completely. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]SqueezitgirdleSilver | QC: CC 78 | CRO 42 | ExchSubs 43[🍰] 6 points7 points8 points 16 hours ago (2 children) If you had to provide your key manually to these three companies it would be fine. The problem, if I understood correctly, is the fact that it can lift your key for you automatically if you pay for their service. Ledger led us to believe that wasn't possible. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 31 points32 points33 points 20 hours ago (21 children) If I got it right, the device produces three shards... TLDR It CAN expose your seed. By definition, it's not a cold wallet anymore. That's all that matters. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Maxx3141Platinum | QC: CC 2677 32 points33 points34 points 20 hours ago (20 children) Every hw-wallet can expose your seed once, otherwise you couldn't do a backup. This still makes them cold wallets because it stays offline. The ledger won't ever share the seed without you confirming it, and still I don't want this feature in my hw-wallet at all. I would agree to call it a "hot hw-wallet" from now on. There is a chance this feature can only be used once after setup and will be disabled afterwards, similar to the seed backup. We don't know the full details for now. Also I think it's terrible how they just sneakily rolled it out without a major announcement with technical details. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (20 replies) load more comments (12 replies) [–]yuumonadi 14 points15 points16 points 16 hours ago (13 children) I use a Nano S. am I safe? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]oximoran 11 points12 points13 points 13 hours ago (2 children) Looks like S will not support this "feature," but that's not a guarantee of anything. What Ledger devices are compatible with Ledger Recover? Currently, Ledger Recover is compatible with Ledger Nano X. In the near future, it will be compatible with Ledger Nano S Plus and Ledger Stax as well. ⚠️ Ledger Recover isn't compatible with Ledger Nano S. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]MindTheMindForMind 9 points10 points11 points 15 hours ago (3 children) Same question, they didn’t specify if this feature is only a Nano X thing. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) [–]hippofireTin | 4 months old 16 points17 points18 points 20 hours ago (5 children) What’s the risk in not updated the firmware ever and just transferring funds to it? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 30 points31 points32 points 19 hours ago (2 children) It's closed source, nobody knows. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]Qu1bbz 13 points14 points15 points 16 hours ago (0 children) Potential risks: It's proprietary software so this feature might already exist and worst case ledger already backed up your seed and can use your funds however they please. The government confiscated your ledger and can get access to your seed through the ledger company by making them update your firmware and extracting the seed. A 3rd party might be able to compromise the firmware of your ledger, extract the seed and steal your funds. The fact that the possibility to extract the seed even exists is a fundamental flaw and there is no solution other than not using a ledger. The point of a hardware wallet is that it SHOULD be impossible on a hardware-level to extract the seed. If a simple firmware update is enough... the whole point is gone. At this point ledger is nothing more than a bank you trust. On top of this they already got compromised in the past, so good luck to anyone who actually puts their trust in them. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Zwiebel1Platinum | QC: CC 432, BNB 20 | ExchSubs 20 11 points12 points13 points 19 hours ago (0 children) You don't know if the functions used in that firmware update existed before aswell. It might have existed for a long time and just went by unnoticed. Its only a minor threat to security but are you really willing to take chances if you bought a cold storage exactly for that purpose? permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]ToufuNow 40 points41 points42 points 19 hours ago* (9 children) The big problem here is how would they implement this service. If they just ask the user to input the seed phrase to the ledger live and send to them. Then it's just plain stupid but not a threat to an educated users with basic sanity. However, if they can generate these social recovery phrases jusy by asking users to connect their ledger to the ledger live, then it would be a serious problem, as it means they indeed have a backdoor to extract the seed phrases from the security chip. >From my humble opinion, the best solution to implement this (assuming someone actually need this feature in the first place and there is really no such backdoor to extract the seed pharse), is to make an app running on ledger device that requires the user to input the seed phrases to the ledger again. This app would do the cryptographic calculation to generate these social recovery phrases and the user can then submit them to online custody services provided by Ledger. In this way, Ledger just act as an offline cryptographic calculator processing the input seed pharse, and has nothing to do with the seed phrase stored inside the security chip. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]TrylksJust joking! 8 points9 points10 points 17 hours ago (2 children) The “security chip” should be generating the social recovery, and the passphrase never leaving it. But “security chip” sounds like bullshit, TBH. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 26 points27 points28 points 19 hours ago (4 children) Fully agree. Then it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, the co-founder confirmed that the device can leak data. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]ToufuNow 18 points19 points20 points 19 hours ago (1 child) It would be scary if that is the case. The existence of such method to extract the seed pharse is a serious threat to all Ledger user. Even if they choose not to use this service, a malicious program lurk in the computer/smartphone that the Ledger connects to can exploit such interface and cheat ledger to give out the stored seed phrase. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 10 points11 points12 points 19 hours ago (0 children) Exactly. It's game over. I'm buying Trezor and Coldcard today. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–]RealVoldemortPlatinum | QC: CC 52 32 points33 points34 points 19 hours ago (3 children) Wtf are they doing. What the actual f permalink embed save report give award reply [–]partymslPlatinum | QC: CC 702 | r/WSB 16 3 points4 points5 points 18 hours ago (0 children) Ruining their own business in the pursuit of more profits. Just as all do at a certain point. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]Mr_Bob_FergusonPlatinum | QC: CC 445 6 points7 points8 points 17 hours ago (0 children) Wtf are they doing It's a really strange decision. They should know their customer base well enough to know that trust and security and the major factors that people are looking for. And now they have ruined it. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]crypteningTin | QC: BTC 28 | BCH critic 8 points9 points10 points 19 hours ago (1 child) They already leaked everybody's name and home address so this latest ledger service allows criminals to be less violent towards us. Thank you ledger;/ permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]Intelligent_Page2732Platinum | QC: CC 918 20 points21 points22 points 20 hours ago (4 children) It's a disturbing development, I would immediatly opt out of this, even the chance that it can expose your seed phrase is already to much for me. Besides that, if the French government is knocking down their doors, I would get out of French if I were Ledger to stay in business. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 15 points16 points17 points 20 hours ago (1 child) Too late for all that. Open source only from now on. As you say, the fact that it CAN is more than enough. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–]slasula 8 points9 points10 points 18 hours ago (0 children) oh ffs I’ve just finished moving everything over to ledger permalink embed save report give award reply [–]FenweekoooBronze | MiningSubs 15 9 points10 points11 points 15 hours ago (2 children) sigh.... has trezor fucked up anything i should be aware of in the last bit? permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]SandboChangTin | r/AMD 102 6 points7 points8 points 12 hours ago (1 child) Ledger is officially done for, the damage is irreversible as by introducing the service they have exposed the fact that their device can be hacked that way, which was thought to be impossible. permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]Alarming_Associate47Tin 6 points7 points8 points 15 hours ago (0 children) How to wreck you company in seconds 101 permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Knotley-Hunt-Brick 12 points13 points14 points 19 hours ago (5 children) ummm should i cancel my ledger order and order rasberry pi instead ? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]helobro11 10 points11 points12 points 15 hours ago (0 children) Yeah bro permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 12 points13 points14 points 19 hours ago (0 children) Yes! permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]OutTopTin | 3 months old 6 points7 points8 points 17 hours ago (0 children) Time to switch permalink embed save report give award reply [–]RicothebuttonpusherTin | Politics 60 5 points6 points7 points 13 hours ago (0 children) What’s the next best cold wallet to use? Trezor? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]Bunker_BeansPlatinum | QC: CC 224, BTC 40 | ADA 18 14 points15 points16 points 18 hours ago (2 children) Glad I went with Trezor over Ledger. permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (2 replies) [–]EdgeLord19941 10 points11 points12 points 19 hours ago (4 children) Hope this isn't available on older devices like the nano S? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 7 points8 points9 points 19 hours ago (3 children) We will never know. I have a nano S, but after this news, I don't feel safe. permalink embed save parent report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]R0Y-BATTYBronze 3 points4 points5 points 19 hours ago (4 children) Is it only on the Nano - X ? permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (4 replies) [–]CognizantSynapsidPlatinum | QC: CC 42 | r/WSB 43 4 points5 points6 points 13 hours ago (0 children) This blows. Own two ledgers. The inconvenience continues permalink embed save report give award reply [–]redbullandranchTin 12 points13 points14 points 17 hours ago* (3 children) So, we get posts all the time with new users saying they were "hacked" and lost their stash. Then everybody bombards them with some version of "you weren't hacked, it's your fault". This Ledger change makes you think. How long has it been in effect? Maybe some of those hacks were caused by this because nobody knew about it. Maybe it's already been compromised... permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (3 replies) [–]neverreddit1984 10 points11 points12 points 18 hours ago (1 child) Ledger just signed their own obituary. permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]VeludoVeludoPlatinum | QC: CC 118 3 points4 points5 points 19 hours ago (2 children) Guess I will just memorize my seed phrase and pray telepathy won't work anytime soon. permalink embed save report give award reply [–]daken15Bronze 4 points5 points6 points 14 hours ago (1 child) Just last week a paper came out of a team of researches that could read a mouse mind and see an image of what the mouse was seeing, so not far away. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]VeludoVeludoPlatinum | QC: CC 118 3 points4 points5 points 14 hours ago (0 children) Fuck... aluminium foil hats it is. permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]TheJustinG2002Silver | QC: CC 86 | LRC 49 3 points4 points5 points 15 hours ago (1 child) I have a Nano S Plus. I read it's only for the X. It's still an absolute atrocity but I hope things don't get worse. I'm not looking to buy a new hardware wallet anytime soon. permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (1 reply) [–]zzzz4xzzzz__Tin 3 points4 points5 points 14 hours ago (0 children) Mf my life’s money is on my damn ledger fuck! Gotta get a Trezor! permalink embed save report give award reply [–]SufficientNet9227Tin 3 points4 points5 points 13 hours ago (1 child) we need a international class action lawsuit for a refund and refund all the fees to transfer... permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 5 points6 points7 points 13 hours ago (0 children) Yes, let's do it! permalink embed save parent report give award reply [–]QptimisedTin 7 points8 points9 points 20 hours ago (4 children) Newbie here. If not Ledger, any other good cold wallets for recommendation? permalink embed save report give award reply load more comments (4 replies) [–]BlockChad 2 points3 points4 points 19 hours ago (6 children) This is optional though right? You have to opt in? permalink embed save report give award reply [–]BusinessBreakfast3Platinum | QC: BTC 28, CC 22 | CRO 5[S] 11 points12 points13 points 19 hours ago (5 children) Yes. But the device can expose data to the internet. That's the scary part. permalink embed save parent report give award reply

1 0

Secret Service Accidentally Killed JFK and covered it up.
by professor rat 16 May '23

16 May '23

Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK (1992) by Bonar Menninger (ISBN 0-312-08074-3) alleges that while Oswald did attempt to assassinate JFK and did succeed in wounding him, the fatal shot was accidentally fired by Secret Service agent George Hickey, who was riding in the Secret Service follow-up car directly behind the presidential limousine. The theory alleges that after the first two shots were fired the motorcade sped up while Hickey was attempting to respond to Oswald's shots and he lost his balance and accidentally pulled the trigger of his AR-15 and the shot fatally hit JFK. Hickey's testimony says otherwise: "At the end of the last report (shot) I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the rear." (italics added).[501] George Hickey sued Menninger in April 1995 for what he had written in Mortal Error. The case was dismissed as its statute of limitations had run out. The theory received public attention in 2013 when it was supported by Colin McLaren's book and documentary titled JFK: The Smoking Gun (ISBN 978-0-7336-3044-6). LBJ apparently believed this and there was a report of gunpowder smell at ground level that day. Oswald was high above on the sixth floor. Carcano used by Oswald also drilled neat holes - unlike AR-15 rounds.

1 0

FOIA: CIA Did JFK
by professor rat 16 May '23

16 May '23

For my 2c the Secret Service killed JFK while trying to protect him from Oswald. Two acoustics experts said there was a 95 percent certainty that the recording revealed that four shots had been fired at the presidential motorcade. Oswald fires once straight ahead but bullet fizzles. Oswald fires again misses and hits kerb. Another shot - the ' Magic Bullet " hits two targets, Gov and Potus. Fourth shot coincides with accidental firing of ' Dum Dum " round from SS car behind Potus. Gunpowder smell reported at ground level - Oswald was well above that and indoors! And no more neatly drilled Carcano holes - a chuck of Potus head goes flying up in air before falling on trunk where Mrs K recovers it. No CIA plot required where stupidity and insanity will cover it. Oswald's motives also possibly included ' South will rise again ' resentment against arch-Yankee, JFK and a large dollop of Marxist-Communism that started when O was 15 in NYC. O saw himself as a left-fascist revolutionary and took a pot-shot at a local rightwinger before this. TL/DR Lee Harvey Oswald CAUSED the death which was then obfuscated to some extent by the US Secret Service.

1 0

How to take action on digital crime?
by Undescribed Horrific Abuse, One Victim & Survivor of Many 16 May '23

16 May '23

Paypal confirmed the 72975 number (rather than 729725) my family gets confirmation codes is not owned by them. This is very clear evidence our web is persistently compromised. Personally I blame my insane behavior on this compromise and years of digital gaslighting. Does anybody know how to take action on this evidence from paypal?

1 0

Overthrowing the Network State
by professor rat 16 May '23

16 May '23

Overthrowing the Network State (OTNS) is a series in collaboration with Blockchaingov where we critique The Network State by Balaji Srinivasan while also pulling out the salvageable parts and concepts in discussion with a variety of guests. We are overall critical of Balaji’s specific ideas in the book, but we want to discuss it with intellectual honesty and highlight the larger concepts around how these technologies are and could subvert state structures. https://theblockchainsocialist.com/otns-network-states-is-what-you-get-when… My trial - your funeral

1 0

Big plans for A.I., energy, and crypt? . Well la-de-da.
by professor rat 16 May '23

16 May '23

Sam Altman is going to need killing shortly if he doesn't start talking-up quantum-PKI leading directly to cryptoanarchism. The quantum internet. State-of-the-art encryption too cheap to meter. Come ON! Cryptoanarchism is the only cybernetic system that can manage ever-stronger AI, Fusion and global UBI. Its not just foolish in the extreme to pretend the existing powers can handle all this - its suicidal. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sam-altman-plowing-ahead-nuclear-200434840.h… Reposts not allegedly benign versions of Peter Thiel and/ or Elon Musk

1 0

Secret recordings of ex-partner continue to haunt law firm Freedman Normand | Reuters
by Gunnar Larson 16 May '23

16 May '23

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/secret-recordings-ex-partner-conti… (Reuters) - The plaintiffs firm once known as Roche Freedman, now redubbed Freedman Normand Friedland, has been ousted from another crypto class action because of clandestine – and embarrassing — video recordings of onetime name partner Kyle Roche. But this time, the problem wasn’t the content of the videos, in which Roche appears to boast of his lucrative stake in blockchain company Ava Labs Inc and to suggest that he filed class actions against Ava competitors to boost Ava’s prospects. Instead, U.S. District Judge James Donato of San Francisco removed Freedman Normand as lead counsel in a securities fraud class action against blockchain company Dfinity USA Research LLC because he found the firm to be so consumed with vindicating its own reputation that it could not be relied upon to protect the interests of class members. Advertisement · Scroll to continue Donato’s May 8 decision followed seven months of litigation that the judge described as “a bitter war" that included "charges of personal vendettas, deepfake videos and other events not typically encountered in securities lawsuits.” (More on that below.) He is the second federal judge to remove Freedman Normand as lead counsel in a crypto case, after U.S. District Judge Katherine Polk Failla of Manhattan booted the firm from a class action against stablecoin issuer Tether Ltd and crypto exchange Bitfinex last October. After Failla’s ruling, Freedman Normand voluntarily withdrew from two other crypto class actions in Manhattan federal court. The firm has defeated disqualification motions in several other cases, including litigation against self-proclaimed Bitcoin inventor Craig Wright, who unsuccessfully sought to remove Freedman Normand from the appeal of a $143 million judgment the firm obtained for Wright’s onetime business partner. Advertisement · Scroll to continue The Dfinity fight before Donato was particularly heated, though, because Freedman Normand blamed Dfinity’s founder and CEO for the entire Roche mess. According to the firm, it was Dfinity that engaged a Norwegian businessman with ties to international intelligence agencies to lure Roche to London to discuss a supposed investment in a litigation funding venture. Those meetings, according to Freedman Normand, were actually a set up: The Norwegian operative got Roche drunk and secretly videotaped him making intemperate remarks, including a comment that crypto class members were “100,000 idiots out there” and that jurors are “10 idiots [who] control the flow of all the money that happens in American class actions.” Freedman Normand asserted that Dfinity then launched an anonymous website, Crypto Leaks, to post the secret recordings of Roche. The firm has espoused different positions on the authenticity of the recordings at various points in its fight to stay in the Dfinity class action. Early on, it acknowledged that Roche – who left the firm soon after Crypto Leaks published the videos – had made inappropriate and inexcusable comments. But later in the disqualification litigation, Freedman Normand sought to file an expert report purporting to show that many of the Crypto Leaks videos were inauthentic “deepfakes.” Advertisement · Scroll to continue Donato noted the shift in his opinion ousting the firm. He called it a “flipflop,” and said Freedman Normand’s renunciation of its “forthright” acknowledgement had added to his concern that the plaintiffs firm “is heavily invested in protecting its own interests, to the detriment of those of the class.” Roche, who now has his own eponymous firm, did not respond to my email query. Freedman Normand said in an email statement that it is "disappointed" with Donato's order. "It criticized the firm for merely defending itself from Dfinity’s accusations [and] did not address central aspects of our arguments," the statement said. "The firm has never 'flipflopped.' We continue to disavow the problematic statements in the videos, but when new evidence indicated the videos are deepfaked and that Mr. Roche never made those statements, we sensibly advised the court of that development." Dfinity counsel from Cravath, Swaine & Moore and Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan did not deny Dfinity’s involvement in the secret recordings in their brief responding to Freedman Normand’s assertions. Dfinity merely said that it didn’t matter if Roche was set up because he was not coerced into making the statements that landed him in hot water. Dfinity’s lawyers did not respond to my email request for comment. After initial briefing on Dfinity’s motion to disqualify Freedman Normand, Donato ordered a deposition to determine the extent of Roche’s remaining ties to Freedman Normand, including the extent of Roche's control of the firm's Ava-issued tokens, which are held in a crypto wallet. The deposition of name partner Freedman generated yet more bizarre allegations. In a letter asking Donato to seal the deposition transcript because it revealed confidential information about the firm’s relationship with its now-former client Ava, Freedman Normand also told the judge that it feared Dfinity executives would “misuse” the sensitive information to threaten and intimidate Roche and his former colleagues. Freedman Normand asserted that Dfinity had already “made threats on Mr. Roche’s life, necessitating FBI involvement.” Advertisement · Scroll to continue In Monday’s decision, Donato said he did not need to probe that claim, which turned out to have been based on “multiple layers of hearsay.” (Apparently, a Freedman Normand associate told the firm's in-house general counsel that a friend, also a lawyer, reported hearing that “people associated with Dfinity were planning to kill Mr. Roche.”) Donato said he regarded Freedman Normand's assertion of a murder threat as yet more evidence that the firm was so “deeply immersed in a toxic perception of the defendants in this case” that it was not capable of fulfilling its fiduciary obligations to the class. Donato also said that the record showed Roche remains entangled with his former firm. Roche’s new firm is co-counsel with Freedman Normand in three cases – none of them class actions, according to the firm – and is still in joint control, with Freedman, of the digital wallet containing tokens from Ava. (Ava, according to Freedman Normand, terminated its relationship with Roche and the successor firm after Crypto Leaks released the Roche tapes.) It has now been six months since the Roche tapes shook up the crypto bar. Most of the disqualification motions based on the tapes have already been decided, so Donato’s Dfinity ruling serves as a sort of coda on the entire fiasco. In the end, it turns out, Freedman Normand's fight to delegitimize the tapes seems to have only made things worse.

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Cryptocurrency: Debt, People Buying Hard Assets with Cheapening Fiat
by grarpamp 16 May '23

16 May '23

US Now Spends More Servicing Its Debt Than On National Defense By Mark Cudmore, Bloomberg Markets reporter and strategist Thanks to rising yields, the US government now has to spend more each year on servicing its immense debt burden than it spent on national defense in 2022. The calculation is based on estimated annualized debt payments as of end of April versus the Treasury’s release of last year’s budget expenditures. If you want one stat to sum up why debt-ceiling negotiations are so fraught this time around, making them both harder to conclude and yet more important for markets, this is probably it. Estimated annualized debt-servicing costs are about 90% higher than they were back in 2011. This is partially due to an exploding debt pile, but also due to a significant shift higher in US yields. In 2022, based on how the Treasury breaks down line items, the US government only spent more on social security ($1,244b) and health ($909b), with income security in line with today’s debt-servicing costs at $813b. A Disorderly Reset With Gold Revalued By Multiples Authored by Egon von Greyerz via GoldSwitzerland.com, Tectonic shifts lie ahead. These will involve a US and European debt crisis ending in a debt collapse, a precipitous fall of the dollar and the Euro with Gold emerging as a reserve asset but at multiples of the current price. The next phase of the fall of the West is here and will soon accelerate. It has been both precipitated and aggravated by the absurd sanctions of Russia. These sanctions are hurting Europe badly and affecting the US in a way that they didn’t expect, but was obvious to some of us. The Romans understood that free trade was essential between all the countries that they conquered. But the US administration blocks have both the money and the ability to trade of the countries they don’t like. But shooting yourself in the foot really hurts and the consequences are in front of our eyes. No foreign country will want to hold US debt or dollars. That is a catastrophic problem for the US as their deficits will grow exponentially in coming years. So a debt collapse is not just a looming disaster but a bomb hurling towards the US economy at supersonic speed. With the imminent death of the petrodollar and explosion of US debt, there is only one solution for the funding requirements of the US Government – the FED which will stand as the sole buyer of US Treasuries. A CATASTROPHIC DEATH SPIRAL So the DEBT spiral of higher debt, higher deficits, more Treasuries, higher rates and falling bond prices will soon turn into a DEATH spiral with a collapsing dollar, high inflation and most probably hyperinflation. Sounds like default to me but that word will probably never be used officially. It is hard to admit defeat even when it stares you in the face! Yes, the US will probably obfuscate the situation with CBDCs (Central Bank Digital Currencies) but since that is just another form of Fiat money, it will at best buy a little time but the end result will be the same. US Debt Ceiling Farce belongs to Broadway rather than Wall Street The debt ceiling was created in 1917 as a means of restricting reckless spending by the US government. But this travesty has gone on for over 106 years. During that time there has been a total disdain for budget discipline by the ruling Administration and congress. The problem is not just the debt but the cost of financing it. The annualised cost of financing the Federal debt is currently $1.1 trillion. If we assume conservatively that the debt grows to $40 trillion within 2 years, the interest cost at 5% would be $2 trillion. That would be 43% of current tax revenue. But as the economy deteriorates, interest will easily exceed 50% of tax revenue. And that is at 5% which will probably be much too low as inflation rises and The Fed loses control of rates. Thus a very dire scenario lies ahead and that is certainly not a worst case scenario. THE FED IS BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE The Fed and the thus US government are now between Scylla and Charybdis (Rock and a Hard Place). As it looks today, the US will bounce between Scylla and Charybdis in coming years until the US financial system and also the economy takes ever harder knocks and goes under just as every monetary system has in history. Obviously the rest of the West including an extremely weak Europe will follow the US down. BRICS AND SCO – RISING POWERS The whole world will suffer but the commodity rich nations as well as the less indebted ones will ride the coming storm far better. This includes much of South America, Middle East, Russia and Asia. The expanding power blocks of BRICS and SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organisation) will be the strong powers where a much increasing part of global trade will take place. Barring major political and geopolitical upheavals, China will be the dominant nation and the main factory of the world. Russia is also likely to be a major economic power. With $85 trillion of natural resource reserves, the potential is clearly there for this to happen. But first the political system of Russia needs to be “modernised” or restructured. What I outline above is of course structural shifts that will take time, probably decades. But whether we like it or not, the first phase, which is the fall of the West, could happen faster than we like. A MONETARY SYSTEM ALWAYS ENDS IN A DEBT EXPLOSION In 1913, total US debt was negligible, and in 1950, it had grown to $406 billion. By the time Nixon closed the gold window in 1971, debt was $1.7 trillion. Thereafter the curve has become ever steeper as the graph below shows. From September 2019 when the US banking system started to crack, the Repo crisis told us that there were real problems although no one wanted to admit it. Conveniently for the US government, the Repo crisis became the Covid crisis which was a much better excuse for the Government to print unlimited amounts of money together with the banks. Thus, just in this century, total US debt has grown from $27 trillion to $94 trillion! But that was history and we know we can’t do anything about the past. But now comes the fun. I have been warning about a coming debt explosion for some time. Well, I believe this is it. In a recent article about the price of gold I explained that the final stages of hyperinflation are exponential. We will see a very similar exponential pattern with the coming debt explosion. If we assume that the final 5 minutes of the exponential phase started in September 2019, the stadium was then only 7% full and will in the next few years grow from 7% to 100% full or 14X from here. This is obviously just a demonstration and no exact science, but it shows that theoretically US debt could now explode. So let’s take a quick look at a few factors that will cause the debt explosion. BANK FAILURES A Hoover Institute report calculates that more than 2,315 US banks currently have assets worth less than their liabilities. The market value of their loan portfolios are $2 trillion lower than the book value. And remember this is before the REAL fall of the asset values which is still to come. Just take US property values which are greatly overvalued by the lenders: So the four US banks that have gone under recently are clearly just the beginning. And no one must believe that it is just small banks. Bigger banks will follow the same route. During the 2006-9 subprime crisis, bailouts were the norm. But at the time, it was said that the next crisis would involve bail-ins. But as we have seen so far in the US, there were no bail-ins. Clearly the government and the Fed were concerned about a systemic crisis and did not have the guts to bail in the bank customers, not even above the FDIC limit. As the crisis spreads, I doubt that bank depositors will be treated so leniently. Neither the FDIC, nor the government can afford to rescue everyone. Instead depositors will be given an offer they can’t refuse which is compulsory purchase of US treasuries equal to their credit balance. The European banking sector is in an even worse state than the US one. European banks are sitting on large losses from bond portfolios acquired when interest rates were negative. No one knows at this stage the magnitude of the losses which are likely to be substantial. Both in commercial property and housing, the situation is worse in Europe than in the US since the European banks are funding most of these loans directly themselves, including € 4 trillion of home mortgages. The banks also have a mismatch between low rates received on mortgages against high rates paid to finance them. The ex-governor of the Bank of France and ex-head of the IMF, Jacques de Larosière accuses the authorities of subverting the private banking system with deranged volumes of QE after it had become toxic: “Central banks, far from promoting stability, have delivered a Masterclass in how to organise financial crisis” $3 QUADRILLION OF GLOBAL DEBT & LIABILITIES If we add the unfunded liabilities and the total outstanding derivatives to the global debt, we arrive at around $3 quadrillion as I discussed in this article: “This is it! The financial system is terminally broken” Sadly, the Western financial system is now both too big to save and too big to fail. Still all the king’s horses and all the king’s men cannot save it. So even if the system is too big to fail, it will with very dire consequences. GOLD TO BE SUBSTANTIALLY REVALUED IN THE DISORDERLY RESET Just over a century after the creation of the Fed and the beginning of the debt ceiling, the mighty dollar has lost 99% of its value in purchasing power terms. And measured against the only money which has survived in history – Gold – the dollar has also lost 99%. This is obviously not an accident. Not only is gold the only money which has survived but also the only money which has kept its purchasing power throughout the millennia. For example, a Roman Toga cost 1 ounce of gold 2000 years ago, which today is also the price for a high quality man’s suit. You would have thought that losing 99% of its value for the reserve currency of the world would be a disaster. Well it is of course, but the US, as well as most of the Western world, has adjusted by increasing debt exponentially to make up for the disastrous debasement of the currencies. What is even more interesting, gold is up 8-10X this century against most currencies. That is a superior performance to virtually all major asset classes. And still nobody owns gold which is only 0.5% of global financial assets. More recently gold is at all-time-highs in all currencies including the dollar. But in spite of the extremely strong performance of gold or more correctly put, the continued debasement of all currencies, no one talks about gold. Just looking at the number of articles covering gold in the press in the graph below (white bars), it confirms that the most recent price increase of gold (blue line) is met by a yawn. This is obviously very bullish. Imagine if all stock markets made new highs. It would be all over the media. So what this is telling us is that this gold bull market, or currency bear market, has a very long way to go. As I often point out, no fiat money but only gold has survived throughout history. Gold’s rise over time is always guaranteed as governments and central banks will without fail destroy their currency by creating virtually unlimited fake money. Since this has been going on for 1000s of years, history tells us that this trend of constantly debasing fiat money is unbreakable due to the greed and mismanagement of governments. And now with the debt crisis accelerating, so will the gold price. Luke Groman makes a very interesting point in his discussion with Grant Williams (grant-williams.com by subscription). Luke suggests that although the dollar will not yet die as a transactional currency, that it is likely to be replaced by gold as the reserve asset currency. The combination of dedollarisation and liquidation of US treasuries by foreign holders will lead to this development. Commodity countries will sell for example oil to China, receive yuan and change the yuan to gold on the Shanghai gold Exchange. They will then hold gold instead of dollars. This will avoid the dollar as a trading currency when it comes to commodities. In order for gold to function as a reserve asset, it will need to be revalued with a zero at the end and a bigger figure at the beginning as Luke says. The whole idea would be that gold will become a neutral reserve asset which floats in all currencies. The inverse triangle of Global debt resting on only $2 trillion of Central Bank gold shown above makes the revaluation of gold obvious. A floating gold price as a reserve asset is of course much more sensible than a fixed gold price backing the currencies and would be the nearest to Free Gold. See my 2018 article, “Free Gold will kill the Paper Gold Casino”. So the consequence of gold becoming a reserve asset could involve a rise of say 25X or 50X the current level. Certainly not an improbable outcome in today’s money. The debasement of the dollar and other Western currencies is likely to have a similar effect but then we are not talking in today’s money. Time will tell. As gold is now in an acceleration phase, we are likely to see much higher levels however long it takes and whatever the reason is for the rise. The 1980 gold price of $850, adjusted for real inflation would today be $28,300 As gold is now in an acceleration phase, we are likely to see much higher levels however long it takes. What is clear is that fiat money, bonds, property and stocks will all decline precipitously against gold. What is important for investors is to take protection now against the most significant RESET in history which is a disorderly reset. So if you don’t hold gold yet, please, please protect your family, and your wealth by acquiring physical gold. Gold repositioning as a Global Reserve Asset could happen gradually or it could happen suddenly. But please be prepared because when it happens you don’t want to hold worthless paper money or assets. Much Of The Markets Still Don't Believe The US Can Default By Ven Ram, Bloomberg markets live reporter and strategist "if political [debt ceiling] kabuki ends in risk-off drama then Fed does QE (like BoE last Oct)…this is why other assets classes not worried." - BofA's Michael Hartnett Except in some specific corners, most of the markets don’t quite buy the story that the US Treasury could, after all, default on its obligations. T-bills due around the estimated time of the X-date have shown some angst, with yields on one-month instruments up some 200 basis points in less than a month. Meanwhile, credit-default swaps are pricing in a 3% chance of a default. While that may not seem alarming, that default pricing is way higher than in 2011 and 2013, when we were last witness to such stress. Yet, the rest of the markets are still pretty sanguine about the eventual outcome. The S&P 500 is still holding onto to its 7+% rally for the year, while the Nasdaq 100 is up a gravity-defying 22%. Front-end Treasury yields have come off more than 100 basis points from their peak for the cycle, but that is more a reflection of the markets positioning — rightly or wrongly — for a putative Fed pivot rather than anything to do with the debt-ceiling impasse. Gold, which BBG readers reckon will be a haven should the US indeed default, hasn’t done much so far this month. While the supposed X-date — when the Treasury will have run through its gamut of emergency maneuvers — is supposedly June 1, in reality it may turn out to be different because it’s impossible to look through the crystal ball and know precisely when, say, tax receipts may flow in. That is perhaps one reason the markets reckon that lawmakers will do what common sense dictates by the time the D-Day rolls in. X-date outlook is worsening as FDIC withdrew $12bn on May 4-5 from TGA & Treasury released new estimates of extraordinary measures remaining. Looking like $20bn cash on hand at end of day on June 1 (old expectation was $38bn) https://t.co/Zf6dIaBIkQ pic.twitter.com/cbF3LVdiwW — Donald Schneider (@DonFSchneider) May 15, 2023 The point, though, is the the US economy, already facing considerable headwinds from the turmoil in the banking industry, isn’t quite so well-placed to flirt with another Wile E. Coyote moment. And that is the part the stock markets haven’t quite priced in — yet

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