At today's Silly Valley cypherpunks meeting (Tim May, John Gilmore, Eric Hughes, Sandy Sandfort, Whit Diffie, Romana "Cypherella" Machado, etc. etc.) there was a lot of hand-wringing about the cypherpunks movement "stalling". Ever the pessimist, Tim May drew a chart showing cypherpunks starting out with a bang (publicizing PGP, starting up anon remailers, etc.) and seeming to stall out (even as we've gotten major publicity in Mondo, Wired, Village Voice, etc.). Much of the rancor and pessimism may reflect the fact that cypherpunks are more distributed now. For example, the stuff on this list is very disconnected from the Bay Area meetings. Do any non-Californians know or care about Digital Silk Road, electronic credit unions, Twain, etc? How hip are Bay Area cypherpunks to the various projects re: user-friendly PGP, CryptoStacker, securely private BBS's, secure phones, etc? (The main motivation for me typing in this message is to try to open up the lines of communication more, let people know what Bay Area cypherpunks are doing, and encourage replies from folks in other regions who are holding meetings & doing projects). Besides, we haven't stalled; we're just on a more mature part of the learning curve. Much of the "low hanging fruit" has been picked (as Tim May pointed out: PGP was already here, remailers were ripe, etc. when cypherpunks crystallized). We seem to have played a major role in delaying Clipper just with our big mouths (and fat fingers :-). More concretely, just today Romana and Geoff Dale unveiled a slick steganography tool for the Mac that, if distributed widely and ported to the PC, would make it practically impossible to outlaw strong crypto. We also have a variety of goals. We all share a commitment to spreading crypto beyond the elites, but for a wide variety of reasons. Some of us (Tim May, myself, etc.) are libertarians who want government out of our lives, others are liberals fighting the NSA, others find it great fun to ding people in power with cool hacks, and still others are in it for the variety of opportunities crypto-anarchy opens up for making "filthy lucre". I don't think it's productive to do too much breastbeating over this, to try to define "cypherpunk correct" politics, or insist that everybody work towards the same goals. The only stuff we really need to agree on is the practical stuff: the general "web of trust" model of cryptography, and the development of common tools and standards on that basis. Beyond that I hope there's room for a wide variety of opinions and projects. My own vision of cypherpunks evolution runs along the following lines. Some of these may be commercial opportunities, but so far cypherpunks have been most effective with freeware like anon remailers, PGP add-ons, etc.: * Digital coupons: S&H greenstamps for online services (netcom/Well/Compuserve net connection services, AMIX, NEXIS/LEXIS, Dow Jones, commercial MUDs, metered e-mail, anon services, network and computing resources, reputation ratings, etc.) Greenstamps are like frequent-flyer miles, you accumulate them with heavy patronage of some service. But greenstamps can be used to purchase a wide variety of services, not just more of the same service. Service providers and coupon vendor(s) work out arrangements for awarding and honoring greenstamps. Implemented with Chaum-style protocol to prevent forgery and assure privacy. * Digital cash: accumulating credits/debits for use of on-line services (including travel services, concert tickets, etc. purchased on-line), eventually paid for by some "real" currency: FRNs, yen, etc. Implemented with Chaum-style protocol to prevent forgery and assure privacy. * On-line markets: Internet video poker, election outcome markets, satellite track betting, etc. Investments[1] can be made & paid out by greenstamps, natch. On-line advertising. * Securely private BBS's * etc. [1] Hey, if Clinton can call government spending "investment" I can do the same for wagers on his reelection! Nick Szabo szabo@netcom.com