I feel that perhaps I started this whole mess that is getting, imho, quite out of hand. I said in a post of several days ago, we need Tim M. and John G. to get out there and speak and we also need some people who wear suits. I think we need both. I agree with Perry about the desire to change things and the perception of a person gives off, etc. Still I think we need both, and since we have both people on this list, I don't see what has to really change. It would be nice to get Tim and John and a few suis to make a lobbying trip to washington. But lets stop the debate. /harry -- Harry Shapiro habs@panix.com List Administrator of the Extropy Institute Mailing List Private Communication for the Extropian Community since 1991