- cypherpunks-legacy@lists.ogf.org

No Subject
by nobody＠rosebud.ee.uh.edu 11 Dec '92

11 Dec '92

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Update on the digital cash project I am having some problems with the port to MSDOS, mostly due to implicitly assuming 32-bit integers in a few places. Probably I won't get it working until next weekend. To recap, the program provides Chaum-style digital cash via two executables, one for the "players" and one for the "banker". The banker creates a public key which has a single modulus n and multiple exponents, the prime numbers starting with 17. He sends n to the players and all is ready. Players withdraw money by running their programs and specifying the denominations they want to withdraw. For example, you could withdraw a 1, two 5's, a 10 and a 20. This would create a file with 5 entries to be sent to the bank. PGP should be used to encrypt and ascii-encode this file (for privacy) and it should be mailed to the banker. The banker receives this file and runs his program to RSA-sign the values in each of the withdrawal-request entries. This is the "blinded cash" that Chaum describes. Again, PGP should be used for mailing this back to the user. The player then has to "unblind" the file to make it "real" digital cash. This also changes it so that the bank won't recognize it when it is deposited. He uses his version of the program to do this, producing an actual digital money file with the five "digital bills" in it. To pay another user, he runs another function to extract the desired bills from this file. Suppose he wants to extract a 1 and a 5. This leaves a 5, a 10 and a 20 in the original file, and creates a new digital cash file with a 1 and a 5. He would then use PGP again to encrypt this for safety and mail it to the person he wants to pay. That person can run a "check" function on the incoming digital money to make sure it has a proper bank signature on it and is not a forgery. He would then mail it directly to the bank so that it could get credited to his account. The banker runs his program which checks the signatures on the incoming money, looks in a database file to make sure these bills haven't been used before, and adds these bills to the database. (The database stores 16 bytes per bill.) He should then record the deposit and perhaps send a confirmation to the depositor (my program doesn't get involved with that). I hope this gives a clearer picture of how the electronic money program works. It is a simple implementation but I think many systems would work similarly. I appreciated the suggestion to use cash as part of the list management itself. Rather than paying people who post, I wonder if it would be better to make people pay to post. Many people have complained about the volume. :) Unfortunately, I suspect that this would involve too much overhead for the mailing list maintainer. Maybe the thing to do is to just get the software out there and let people decide what they want to do with it (if anything). I'm probably going to take a couple more weeks to clean up the user interface and get these bugs out, then I'll try sending it someone to be put on the cypherpunks ftp archive. It's nice to be able to finally sign these messages! - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.1 mQCNAisiUPkAAAED/i1Pf1DaubveDsgjh360rNJ7kWkhssobaVmmWa70l4lOTwy/ sGwhJaA+JdScO9g3B66DIAaU0GiNrTS4YEl/b5ohNDZFdqKlxZ7NW9A5JYjUlhGE a53cRwqUXs42kbPbMh/uKxXBgbUnKrKZnWAh29irDWb+G8OEPQrkCJ6S8691AAUR tAl4UGhhZWRydXM= =HVRq - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.1 iQCVAgUBKyZADQrkCJ6S8691AQHneQP8DRdkOFfG9TwjGDJAX4IxymvzAITqYIJC aMhytyzqFwP6Dku955ZHEPL1SDpNCU8DwK7eKDOgvHRS3m+kihs1l6VR3Gf0AgGw 7jjRJlt7hcqfT16fLHVXtn27A16rUhl2hKrD702wjGzX+MN7mS/8MW2kchVfvQYX M/McOuwuIjs= =/HGX -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Questions about US/Canadian Laws about public encryption
by mark＠coombs.anu.edu.au 11 Dec '92

11 Dec '92

On a discussion of devices one can attach to a phone line to encrypt your comms: rcain(a)netcom.com (Robert Cain) writes: >There may be U.S. national security >laws broad enough to stop a potential seller of such a device and I >have been told that under such laws (of which I know little by definition) >a stop order can be issued by a court which you must obey but can't even >open because it carries a top secret seal and furthermore you cannot even >discuss it without looking at Leavenworth. So it is entirely possible that >hidden laws exist to prevent sale of such devices, have been used and we >would not know it under the umbrella of U.S. national security. So much for "ignorance of the law is no excuse". They want it both ways? Secret laws and you obeying them? Sounds like the rules my roomies make up as we play any board game. (aka cheating :) Mark mark(a)coombs.anu.edu.au

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Re: Questions about US/Canadian Laws about public encryption
by mark＠coombs.anu.edu.au 11 Dec '92

11 Dec '92

David Banisar <Banisar(a)washofc.cpsr.org> quotes: >> (1) Is feeding public data or telephone networks with crypted data >> illegal or those who posted articles on the subject were just >> wishing it were made illegal ??? One might ask that they prove it is encrypted and not merely garbage your pumping down the line to defeat traffic analysis attacks. I dont think it's illegal so send garbage down a line assuming your paying for it and noone is being defrauded by your use of the medium. If you have good enough cryptography they cant prove it's encrypted. If they managed to decode it to something that looks like text but isnt the original cleartext then they are just grabbing at straws and not 'decrypting'. If you choose to put the "standard" bytes in front and behind every block to make it *look* like it's encrypted with a well known algorithm thats your business. To me proving it's encrypted amounts to decrypting it which is what your trying to protect against. If they can prove the algorithm is weak then you can just pay the fine and choose another method. Mark mark(a)coombs.anu.edu.au

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MEETING: Cypherpunks UK (Sunday)
by whitaker＠eternity.demon.co.uk 10 Dec '92

10 Dec '92

Announcing - on incredibly short notice! - the first meeting of Cypherpunks UK... Chris Tame, of FOREST and the Libertarian Alliance, has generously offered the use of the meeting room at his offices for our gathering, this Sunday, 13 December 1992, from 1200 onwards (at least until 1800), at: FOREST 4th Floor 2 Grosvenor Gardens London SW1W 0DH 071-823-6550 This is just around the corner from Victoria Station, at the end of the mansion block near Hobart Place. There's a dark green cabbie shelter across the street from the entrance, and some British Telecom payphones. Can't miss it, really. However, if you have trouble, call the telephone number above, or call my pager, on 081-812-2661. If it helps, we're in the direction of Buckingham Palace, which is (very) partially visible from our windows. If you wish to attend, you should bring a 3.5" DOS-formatted diskette (sorry! My UN*X machine is an Intergraph workstation, and I can't use it for crypto) with a copy of your PGP 2.0+ public key. I'll sign it there. Mac users: if you don't have Apple File Exchange (what!?), I'll be extra nice and take your keys anyway ( ;-)) for AFE conversion on my IIcx. Not to fear. It might not be a bad idea to copy your public key on each of several diskettes, so you've got a copy to distribute to each of the others. Don't trust me to copy *your* key to others! As a matter of fact, as there are plenty of power points in the meeting room, you should bring your laptop, and/or a desktop PC: when someone hands you a disk-with-key, you can sign her key, and hand her back her diskette, with your own pubkey added. Otherwise, we might come close to a (n(n-1))/2 situation... ;-) This should be a lively meeting. Among the topics likely to be discussed are: o The proliferation of PGP public keys in the U.K. o The local development of anonymous remailers and a proposed automatic public key repository o Electronic networking/email security for the novice o Pro-active proliferation of PGP 2.1+ to interesting European, African, and Asian sites - ftp placement - BBS distribution - sneakernet across borders .. and much more! Mark Turner, from Demon Internet Systems, is likely to be on hand to demo DIS for non-DIS users. We've set up our own local, high-quality newsgroups: demon.security demon.security.keys and set up the /pub/ibmpc/pgp archives on gate.demon.co.uk (expanding recently to include all versions of PGP, and "fellow traveller" files). There will be other people here whom I think you will find interesting... be seeing you! Semper vigilans, Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker(a)eternity.demon.co.uk Communications Editor 71750.2413(a)compuserve.com EXTROPY: The Journal of Transhumanist Thought AMiX: RWHITAKER Board member, Extropy Institute (ExI) ================ PGP 2.0 public key available =======================

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A/V compression
by Robert Brooks 10 Dec '92

10 Dec '92

> > This brings up a fun concept: encrypted digital video and audio. > Would it be hard to do IDEA encryption at the standard CD rate? > There are schemes to compress video to that rate--how available > are they? How much investment in equipment and crunch time do > you need? How easy is it to interrupt the bit streams in and out > of a DAT recorder? How cheap is the decoder? > I picked this up off the net a while ago. Sounds like the CL451 might be programmable to do encryption/decryption, too. Background: MPEG is a compression standard for compressing VHS-quality video and stereo audio into a 1.5Mbit/s stream. If anyone's interested in funding/collaborating on a project involving this, let's talk. --- >From eletanjm(a)nuscc.nus.sg Fri Jul 10 21:06:25 1992 >Relay-Version: version Notes 2.8.4 1990/05/09; site hprpcd.rose.hp.com >From: eletanjm(a)nuscc.nus.sg (TAN JIN MENG) >Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1992 04:06:25 GMT >Date-Received: Sun, 12 Jul 1992 01:35:12 GMT >Subject: NEW MPEG I CHIP >Message-ID: <1992Jul11.040625.17239(a)nuscc.nus.sg> >Organization: National University of Singapore >Path: hprpcd!hprdash!hpergfg2!hpda!hpcc05!hplextra!hpscdc!sdd.hp.com!nigel.msen.com!yale.edu!jvnc.net!nuscc!eletanjm >Newsgroups: comp.multimedia >Lines: 23 > >Has anyone seen a demo or read about the new MPEG chipset from C-Cube >systems? > >I heard it's great! > >Some facts I know (or think I know) > >* CL450 - is a decoder only >* CL451 - due out later this year is full encoder/decoder codec >* core is a RISC based processor with 36bit bus splittable into > 4 data streams. 4 separate acc/mul units (ie SIMD). >* Can stream a full resolution video at ISA bus rates. >* Microcode and C compiler development kit. >* CL451 currently runs at 66MHz using fairly old .8 micron > technology ==> we can expect to see even higher speed devices. >* CL451 is pipelinable - ie can put multiple CL451 in tandem to > perform any amount of processor intensive activities. (eg real > time edge/motion detection, special effects etc). >* CL451 is a single chip solution. Just add VRAM. > >* Largest demand so far - for Karaoke!! C-Cube has Jap. backers. > >jin meng > > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Robert Brooks ~ ~ Hewlett Packard Company ~ ~ rb(a)hprpcd.rose.hp.com ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Robert Brooks ~ ~ Hewlett Packard Company ~ ~ rb(a)hprpcd.rose.hp.com ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Tapes of Cypherpunks meeting?
by fnerd＠smds.com 10 Dec '92

10 Dec '92

>Fourth Meeting > >When: Saturday, Dec 12, 1992, 12:00 noon >Where: Cygnus Support offices Would it be possible to pay someone to video (or at least audio) tape this meeting (& others)--or at least the scheduled speakers? I can imagine privacy concerns... Maybe someone could get ready to do it and then ask the attendees whether it's okay, or under what arrangement. There will definitely be people there with somewhat informed opinions on whether to trust me. This brings up a fun concept: encrypted digital video and audio. Would it be hard to do IDEA encryption at the standard CD rate? There are schemes to compress video to that rate--how available are they? How much investment in equipment and crunch time do you need? How easy is it to interrupt the bit streams in and out of a DAT recorder? How cheap is the decoder? At present I would prefer VHS. from out of nowhere -fnerd fnerd(a)smds.com (FutureNerd Steve Witham)

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crypto credits
by fnerd＠smds.com 10 Dec '92

10 Dec '92

>need for a shorter term than "digital cash" for this cryptographic >money. He suggested "cryps". I thought of "emoney" or "ecash" by >analogy to "email". Here's another one: "crydets", based on >"credits". Or maybe we should call them "Chaums".... How about "crypto credits" or "quatloos?" (And you're right about David Chaum, Dining Cryptographers and Digi Cash.) -fnerd quote me fnerd(a)smds.com (FutureNerd Steve Witham)

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CHATTER Broadcast/Filter vs. "Fetching"
by fnerd＠smds.com 10 Dec '92

10 Dec '92

Yanek Martinson basically says that the information that comes over the netnews right now is small enough that you could archive a couple weeks' worth on a gigabyte disk and put the rest on four DAT tapes per year. True, but that's only the current rate of this particular channel. Plus, most of the time I'd have to go back to tape. But the real problem here is that I haven't explained what I want instead. I want all the archives of all the information in all media that have ever been published and stored electronically (including on video and audio tape) available at a second's notice. That's the volume and access-time part of it. The other part is, how do I find what I want? Yanek responds to me: >>...I don't trust computer filters much. > >So how would you expect to know to "fetch" it? Because I read one thing, and it says "in response to your article number so-and-so," or, "Hey, folks, there's a great book on this over here." In other words, following mentions in other things I see--things written mostly by humans, at least at this point, but also published indexes (manual or automatic) and guides. That plus maybe a couple of low-bandwidth subscription setups like magazines, and maybe one or two discussion groups like this one that I would give full time attention to. >> ...support distributed redundant archives, > >That's the current setup. > >> preferably with cross-checking. > >What exactly do you mean by this? That when I requested something, automatically a couple of storage sites would be asked for its MD5 checksum, and my machine would check them against each other and the actual data I got. > >> It would be even nicer if information could be stored, with >> storage cost charged to the owner and/or readers, > >I don't think this would work too well. Just because I answer someone's >question on a newsgroup, I would not want to receive a bill for the >storage. The DAT system you describe has all the potential readers pay for the storage. If they want to, then fine, but if not, and you don't want to either, that's fine, let your answer evaporate. Someone always *is* paying. >> and the rigamarole over creating new groups, and whether all the machines >> between you and the center of the universe get all the groups, etc. > >Then get Len Rose's satellite dish (I did) and you can be pretty sure >you get all the newsgroups. What's that cost, including electronics, modem, etc? Also, you didn't answer about the difficulty of creating groups. -fnerd store me now and quote me later fnerd(a)smds.com (FutureNerd Steve Witham)

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Directions to Cygnus support offices
by hughes 10 Dec '92

10 Dec '92

Cygnus Support 1937 Landings Drive Mt. View, CA 94043 +1 415 903 1400 switchboard +1 415 903 1418 John Gilmore Take US 101 toward Mt. View. From San Francisco, it's about a 40-minute drive. Get off at the Rengstorff Ave/Amphitheatre Parkway exit. If you were heading south on 101, you curve around to the right, cross over the freeway, and get to a stoplight. If you were heading north on 101, you just come right off the exit to the stoplight. The light is the intersection of Amphitheatre and Charleston Rd. Take a right on Charleston; there's a right-turn-only lane. Follow Charleston for a short distance. You'll pass the Metaphor/Kaleida buildings on the right. At a clump of palm trees and a "Landmark Deli" sign, take a right into Landings Drive. At the end of the road, turn left into the complex with the big concrete "Landmark" sign. Follow the road past the deli til you are in front of the clock tower that rises out of one of the buildings, facing you. Enter through the doors immediately under the clock tower. They'll be open between noon and 1PM at least. (See below if you're late.) Once inside, take the stairs up, immediately to your right. At the top of the stairs, turn right past the treetops, and we'll be in 1937 on your left. The door is marked "Cygnus". If you are late and the door under the clock tower is locked, you can walk to the deli (which will be around the building on your left, as you face the door). Go through the gate in the fence to the right of the deli, and into the back lawns between the complex and the farm behind it. Walk forward and right around the buildings until you see a satellite dish in the lawn. Go up the stairs next to the dish, which are the back stairs into the Cygnus office space. We'll prop the door (or you can bang on it if we forget). Or, you can find the guard who's wandering around the complex, who knows there's a meeting happening and will let you in. They can be beeped at 965 5250, though you'll have trouble finding a phone. Don't forget to eat first, or bring food at noon! I recommend hitting the burrito place on Rengstorff (La Costen~a) at about 11:45. To get there, when you get off 101, take Rengstorff (toward the hills) rather than Amphitheatre (toward the bay). Follow it about ten blocks until the major intersection at Middlefield Road. La Costen~a is the store on your left at the corner. You can turn left into the narrow lane behind the store, which leads to a parking lot, and enter by the front door, which faces the intersection. To get to the meeting from there, just retrace your route on Rengstorff, go straight over the freeway, and turn right at the stoplight onto Charleston; see above. See you there! John Gilmore

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Re: 'token exchange' market in Arizona
by Marc.Ringuette＠GS80.SP.CS.CMU.EDU 10 Dec '92

10 Dec '92

I participated in SFI's "Double Auction Tournament" a couple of years ago, placing second. Computer programs participated in a stock market game, with individual buyers and sellers competing with each other to make profit from fictional tokens. The emphasis of the contest was on computer trading strategies, not on monetary systems or computer security. This new "token exchange" sounds like a continuation of the original contest in which there will be an opportunity to compete and refine strategies over a longer term. It will probably be run from a central server with minimal concern over security; these are economists interested in stock market systems, not computer security people. In the original contest, there was a prize pool of $10,000 divided among the 30 contestants, with no contestant winning more than about $500. It seems likely that they'll have a similar bankroll for this one, as an inducement for people to compete. -- Marc Ringuette (mnr(a)cs.cmu.edu)

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