- cypherpunks-legacy@lists.ogf.org

Re: META: Support for prefixes
by Tony Kidson 22 Mar '93

22 Mar '93

In message <m0nTiSl-0001y6C(a)rmsdell.ftl.fl.us> you write: > > is problem: break the current list into topic areas. > > A similar situation occurred a while ago on the Extropians list. Many > people were complaining about excess volume, people were > unsubscribing, and there was talk of splitting the list into many > sublists. There are some problems with sublists. Many people would > subscribe to all the lists, or many of them. List management chores > ((un)subscriptions, bounces, address changes, etc) would increase. > Many messages would get "cross-posted" to several or all lists, and > thus would appear many times in everyone's mail box, thus even > increasing the number of messages to sift through. There are other > problems, which I will not mention now. > > I proposed a simple solution which is in use now, and has greatly > increased the quality of the list, makes it easy for everyone to only > read the messages they want, and does not require deployment of any > new software. The actual volume has not decreased, probably it even > increased. But the information flow is so much more manageable. > > The solution is the use of prefixes in Subject: lines. When you post, > prefix your Subject: line with a short "tag" such as "ANON:", > "DCNET:", "PGP:", "DCASH:", or others. For example, you would see > subjects like > > PGP: new version available > ANON: an new idea for anonymous replies > > etcetera. When reading your mail, just have your mailer sort the mail > by Subject: line (if your mailer can't do that, get a new mailer), and > all messages about PGP will come together, all messages about > anonymous remailers will be in one area, etc. Then it's easy to > delete them all without reading, to save them to a file for future > reference, or to read them if that is a topic you are interested in. > > The beauty of this system is it's anarchistic nature. There is no > need for people to maintain an official list of prefixes, or to vote > on new ones (as is done with newsgroups), or to ask someone to create > one (as would be necessary for mailing sublists). There's no need for > the group as a whole to agree on anything. Just start using them. > Try to find a logical prefix for each message that matches its subject > area. > > Most likely people posting on the same topic will choose same or similar > prefix. After some initial fluctuation, different prefixes for the same > topic will converge to one that will become customary for that topic. > > New prefixes will pop up every once in a while, and the ones not used > will fade from the group memory. This is a flexible, dynamic system. > > As a starting point I will make up a prefix for each of the sublists > you proposed (if you don't like my prefix, use a different one!): > > ANON: anon/pseudo_cpunks Anoymity/Pseudonymity > REMAIL: remailers_cpunks Remailer Technology > DCNET: dining_cpunks DC Nets > RANDOM: random-cpunks Random Generators > DCASH: digimoney_cpunks Digital Banking > PGP: pgp_cpunks PGP App/Current Info > FLAME:-) ziplips_cpunks Crypto-Censorship > WHISTLE: fweee_cpunks Whistleblowers (The "Keith Peterson Area"?) > MEET: physmtgs_cpunks Physical Meetings/Conferences > > Here are some more: META: discussions on the list about the list > itself, such as this post, or the post I am replying to which suggested > splitting the list. Complaints about high volume, messages saying something > does or does not belong on the list, etc, would use this prefix. > > ANNOUNCE: important messages that everyone may be interested in. > > FRIV: for jokes, parodies, other frivolous posts. > > If a post fits in more than one subject area, the main prefix should > be put first, for sorting purposes. The other prefix(es) would follow, > separated by slashes. For example "PGP/ANNOUNCE: new version available" > or "RANDOM/FRIV: why not just flip coins?". This is in no way mandatory, > it's just a convention that developed on Extropians, and it may be > advantageous to use it, to ease further processing. > > Some other ideas: > > You can use procmail, elm filter, slocal, or any other mail processing > tool to handle messages with different prefixes. > > For example if you are a very busy person, or are reading your mail > over a low-speed link, you may want to save all REMAIL/ANNOUNCE > messages in a "remailers" file, delete all FRIV, META, and FLAME > messages, and for each other prefix, save the message to an > appropriate folder for reading later. > > If you were not interested in discussion, but wanted to keep up > on what's going on, you would have the filter delete all the messages > from the mailin list that do not have an ANNOUNCE: prefix. > > Or, if you have enough time and/or are using a high-speed connection, > you may just sort all the messages by Subject: thereby lumping all the > messages on a subject together. Then you can decide which you are going > to read first, which ones you want to delete, etc. > > If this idea takes off, and most people will start using prefixes, further > evolution of the concept is possible. For example a group of extropians > are developing some software on the list host machine that will let people > customise their subscription, for example choosing not to receive messages > with a certain prefix, not to receive messages that don't have a prefix, > or choosing to receive only some selected prefixes, plus any new prefixes > that come to use. > > All this is sometime in the future. Right now, let's start by just > prefixing each subject line with an appropriate prefix. > > -- > Yanek Martinson > yanek(a)novavax.nova.edu > I fully support this call for prefixes by subject class. Tony +-----------------+-------------------------------+--------------------------+ | Tony Kidson | ** PGP 2.1 Key by request ** | Voice +44 81 466 5127 | | Morgan Towers, | The Cat has had to move now | E-Mail(in order) | | Morgan Road, | as I've had to take the top | tony(a)morgan.demon.co.uk | | Bromley, | off of the machine. | tny(a)cix.compulink.co.uk | | England BR1 3QE |Honda ST1100 -=<*>=- DoD# 0801 | 100024.301(a)compuserve.com| +-----------------+-------------------------------+--------------------------+

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Re: HIDE: embedded msgs in grphics & snd
by George A. Gleason 22 Mar '93

22 Mar '93

Re. cyphertext and music: I've been professionally involved in the recording/production scene and could arrange something. There are plenty of damn good bands in the Bay Area who might volunteer for this kind of thing; I can think of a couple of candidates right away. Also a great local studio, Polymorph Productions, which would be amenable to this. All we need to get going is for someone to cover the actual cost of studio time, which is only $30/hour. Now the only hitch right now is my own schedule being really really busy, but I could get a free weekend, or hook up some local cypherpunx with the bands and the studio, and see where it goes. Basically I get the idea that if this worked, the record would get a lot of interest including from a wider audience than cypherpunx, and that translates into attention on the band as such, and that translates into paying back the original production investment with interest. So, anyone interested...? -gg(a)well.sf.ca.us.

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Looking for key-signers in DC
by Joe Thomas 21 Mar '93

21 Mar '93

I finally got my act together, and got PGP running on my pseudo-Mac (actually an Atari with an emulator, but that's another story). Is anyone around DC and available to sign it before I send it to the servers, etc.? Thanks, Joe

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yr mailing list
by alrub＠pro-sol.cts.com 21 Mar '93

21 Mar '93

Dear friends: Please add my name to your mailing list. U.S. snail mail address; Al E. Rubottom 5352 Via Carancho San Diego, CA 92111 internet address: alrub(a)pro-sol.cts.com Thanking you in advance for your attnetin, I remain Appreciateively yours, Alrub ProLine: alrub@pro-sol Internet: alrub(a)pro-sol.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-sol!alrub

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Problems with pgp elm scripts.
by J. Michael Diehl 20 Mar '93

20 Mar '93

I finally got my mailer script to work. I deleted the -S parameter to less in the perl script. But now, it seems that it can't sign my mail unless i'm in another directory but my home. It complains that it can't find a key in secring.pgp for user 'me'. me is an alias that I use for myself, but even if I send mail to mdiehl@triton, it still tries to find a key for 'me'. What gives? +----------------------+----------------------------------------------------+ | J. Michael Diehl ;-) | I thought I was wrong once. But, I was mistaken. | | +----------------------------------------------------+ | mdiehl(a)triton.unm.edu| "I'm just looking for the opportunity to be | | Thunder@forum | Politically Incorrect! | | (505) 299-2282 | <me> | +----------------------+----------------------------------------------------+

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Re: HIDE: embedded msgs in grphics & snd
by tcmay＠netcom.com 20 Mar '93

20 Mar '93

George Gleason writes: >Re. cyphertext and music: I've been professionally involved in the >recording/production scene and could arrange something. There are plenty of >damn good bands in the Bay Area who might volunteer for this kind of thing; >I can think of a couple of candidates right away. Also a great local >studio, Polymorph Productions, which would be amenable to this. All we need >to get going is for someone to cover the actual cost of studio time, which >is only $30/hour. Now the only hitch right now is my own schedule being I'm all for exploring hiding messages in the LSBs of images and audio (having written on this since 1988, and several times on this list), but I don't understand the idea of putting messages in widely distributed, publicly-advertised commercial or semi-commercial CDs: - if lots of people know about it--presumably the goal here--then why hide the message? (Granted, it'll make some people say "Like, wow! Like, messages, man!"...or whatever the current vernacular version would be.) - how would the key be distributed as widely? - clearly this is not a practical way to steganographically send messages. So, what exactly is the point of this exercise? -Tim May -- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: MailSafe and PGP available.

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Future Copy
by Arthur Abraham 20 Mar '93

20 Mar '93

Somehow, I think some of the readers of this list will find this interesting, I don't know why. Popular Science: April 1993 "Color Copiers Countering Counterfeiters An unfortunate result of advances in color copiers is that it is now easier to counterfeit currency. To make it more difficult, Cannon has developed two defenses. One is a currency-recognition technology similar to that used in vending machines. But Canon has enhanced the technology to recognize a bill regardless of its orientation of it it's among a clutter of material. In a demonstration, a Canon official tried to copy a Japanese bill. The copier sounded an alarm and spit out a piece of paper with a blackened rectangle where the image should have been. "Once a bill is recognized, we could do anything -- have the machine stop, sound an alarm, or, it it's connected to a phone line, call the police,' the official says. The copier will recognize as many currencies as possible. A second feature traces counterfeiters of official documents. Each copier embeds a code into the copied image, which is impossible to see. A special scanner extracts the code and a computer program then furnishes the copier's serial number, allowing identification of the registered purchaser of the machine. With the new anti-counterfeiting technology, Canon can also include a two-sided copying feature previously omitted from its color copiers." Of course, the second to the last paragraph is most interesting, along these lines: a. how are they doing that? b. is this preserved on a second, third, etc. generation copy? c. it is likely that computer scanning and OCR defeats this. c. anybody posting to whistleblowers should be aware of these new machines, and learn how to identify them, and their products. -a2.

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We need a FAQ.
by J. Michael Diehl 20 Mar '93

20 Mar '93

I'd like to have information on anon. remailers, news posters an key servers. I know this has been posted here before, but I lost it all and think that this stuff should be kept together for convenience. I'd almost do it myself if someone would mail me the info. +----------------------+----------------------------------------------------+ | J. Michael Diehl ;-) | I thought I was wrong once. But, I was mistaken. | | +----------------------------------------------------+ | mdiehl(a)triton.unm.edu| "I'm just looking for the opportunity to be | | Thunder@forum | Politically Incorrect! | | (505) 299-2282 | <me> | +----------------------+----------------------------------------------------+

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HIDE: embedded msgs in grphics & snd
by The Phantom 20 Mar '93

20 Mar '93

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Recently George Gleason and myself have exchanged email concerning the embedding of messages into broadcast medium. We discussed options that would confound the traffic analysis performed upon the host medium. We came up with a few ideas that may be interesting to the list. George pointed out what I pointed out earlier - sending the latest Michael Jackson tune over the net might raise eyebrows as well as copyright violations. Being from the 'grunge town' of Seattle, it was discussed that perhaps it would be possible to send a copy of some 'unknown' band over the net without harm. In fact, perhaps this is a good place to start: the underground music scene. gg - "This week on Music By Wire, a new song by the Subversives, recorded at Pretty Good Productions. . ." This distribution channel has advantages over DAT -- no delay and the possibility of a large audience if there was a steady flow of musical traffic. Next, discussion turned to the integration of modem carrier tones as samples in music (rap). If this new twist caught on, the artist could encode messages (in plaintext, or later ciphertext) into the song, including the key on the record insert. What does this do for us? By using ciphertext "... as an artistic product, ..[we] thereby gain another layer of 1st Amendment protection." Free speech. Lastly and perhaps most interesting: I suggested that by using one of these garage bands, we might be able to distribute our own messages on CD. By getting ahold of a local bands' master before they take it to get a record pressed, we could digitize it ourselves, encode our messages (the kama sutra, a message of goodwill, the songs' lyrics, whatever the band wants, too!) into the LSBs and then give it back to the band to press CDs (put the key on the front cover if you like). The band could be told that not only were they certain to sell ~100 CDs (@ $12-$14 each = $1,300 -- no small sum for a garage band) just to cypherpunk members, but they would also be "the first band in history to digitally encode messages into their music... etc." I don't think the ~100 CDs is an understatement, either. How many cypherpunks do we have nowadays? I would be willing to shell over $15 for a (basically) small-capacity encrypted CD ROM disk, even though I personally don't have a player. gg and myself are both rather interested in this last idea -- tweaking with a bands' CD before it gets pressed. Does it sound promising to anyone else? matt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.2 iQCVAgUBK6oMPWSGfFo1zsA5AQEW0AQAqUNNUqdgNyyN2WPGSRx4RCy4umV985CL eHc6TnEsuVDO1InA8nsB4UVh96a3TG/jhSG3xVsGWYt/z5uJbTyqeHtkPWEiLz+j BgR5/mKmeAi0rvFDaIQS1JcoB9gBb3+EFnvOT4RpTtsw+pN5Fry+0PQpQi9zKXbZ pRCGtHKdiiE= =UvO3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Matt Thomlinson University of Washington, Seattle, Washington. Internet: phantom(a)u.washington.edu phone: (206) 528-5732 PGP 2.2 key available via email or finger phantom(a)hardy.u.washington.edu

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We need a FAQ.
by J. Michael Diehl 19 Mar '93

19 Mar '93

I'd like to find out about remailers, reposters, and keyservers. All of this has been posted before, I know. We need to consolidate this into a FAQ for easier access. I'd almost do it myself if I still had the info on hand. +----------------------+----------------------------------------------------+ | J. Michael Diehl ;-) | I thought I was wrong once. But, I was mistaken. | | +----------------------------------------------------+ | mdiehl(a)triton.unm.edu| "I'm just looking for the opportunity to be | | Thunder@forum | Politically Incorrect! | | (505) 299-2282 | <me> | +----------------------+----------------------------------------------------+

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